Topic: Should mics pick up soft noises

[Chill]

I have a pair of SP-CMC-19 (Mini Standard Cardioid microphones) and a Iriver-H120, The sound is clear, but everything I tape with them is very soft, even if I use a battery box.  I have not had a chance to tape a show yet just stuff around the house (people talking, music from speakers and an acoustic guitar).  Would this be because the mics are made for loud shows?  The first show I will tape will be an acoustic one and I am worried that it’s going to be too soft.  Do I have a bad set of mics or battery box?  Also the peak meter never moves past about 1/8 and I have the gain at 40 on the Iriver.

Note: I do not have this problem with the built in microphone on the Iriver.

Thanks Chris

This is a test, I am standing 2 meters from the speakers playing a song that I will be taping, and the volume of the speakers is a little higher then normal listening.  The gain is at 40 on the Iriver with no batter box.  Also the batter box does not change the sound at all.

[Javier Cinakowski]

The battery box is designed for running into a mic-in.  It works well with a line in for very loud sources like rock concerts.  For quiet acoustic stuff you may want to buy a preamp like sound pro's SP-PREAMP.  This will give you 50db more gain than a battery box alone.  Try Church Audio's products too.

[Chill]

Oh, I was hoping to keep the rig, just mics and recorder.  Can anyone subjest some basic mics to go with the H-120 that wouldn’t need a pre or batter box?  Nothing crazy priced please  .

Trying to keep it stealthy.

[Javier Cinakowski]

You basically need a batterybox or preamp.  The little preamps at SP or Church audio are only the size of a pack of smokes and will give you much better recordings than anything going straight into the recorder.  Im not sure if the I-River has a mic-in or just a line in, but either way a battery box or pre is essential for several reasons.  1, the preamp/batt box gives you the proper phantom/bias voltage power to run the mics.  if you do not give the mics enough power they will distort.  2nd, with a preamp you get much more controll over the gain and a quiter recording compaired to the preamps in small recorders.

If the I-River does have a mic-in with plug-in-power (and low sensitivity setting for recording loud sounds) you may be able to get away with using the Mic Madness HLSC microphones.  They are rated at 138db of max SPL without using a battery box.  That is about the only option, I recomend a preamp like the SP-PREAMP of the Church Audio ST9000

[Chill]

The Iriver comes with a line in, that is powered.  But in the guide is says its not always enought.  The person that sold be the mic also gave me an SP-SPSB-3.  Would something like this work better. 

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-SPSB-8

It says it has "Optional in-line level control allows you to adjust the output of the module"

I am sure this would work, but it seem kind of dumb to spend twice as much on a pre then i did my mics

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-PREAMP-10

[jeromejello]

you are experiencing what is typical of those mics being powered with 9v or less.

at a loud show (yes it is louder than your speakers will ever be) you will see better levels... but still not what anyone would call close to perfection.  when i was running at853>spsb-7>jb3 i would ALWAYS have to add gain on the jb3 (which is not the best thing in the world, but i was hoping for as much dyanamic range as i could muster in the field) and still have to add some gain in post if i didnt want to have a low sounding recording.  my point is, all this can be done but you sacrifice the quality of the recording.  i still have a battery box, and will still use it as necessary, but i know that if i use my preamp, i will will get a MUCH MUCH superior recording... however, it is harder to sneak a metal box that is the size of a small paper back in to the house of blues than a 9 volt battery with a little bump on it - not than the mp-2 or ps-2 cant get into the hob, it has, just requires more jedi skills.

aside from this, running with 9v (or worse, plug in power) will make the mics more prone to overloading if the show is too loud.  and there lies the rub.  you need a bunch of volume to get great levels, but too much will make you have a distorted crap pile.  the best bet to counter that is to run them with p48 (phantom) power or a 3 wire box (although i personally dont know what all the hype is, b/c you lose about 3-5 dB which again seems to be a rub - no distortion, but lower headroom).  once it is p48 powered, you can use a pre to boost the levels instead of the iriver.

i havent used any of the cheaper preamps that have been mentioned on this board, so i cant recommend any, but several have and seem to really like them...

[Javier Cinakowski]

the best bet to counter that is to run them with p48 (phantom) power or a 3 wire box (although i personally dont know what all the hype is, b/c you lose about 3-5 dB which again seems to be a rub - no distortion, but lower headroom).  once it is p48 powered, you can use a pre to boost the levels instead of the iriver.

This really only applies to AT853's and the AT933/943's.  These microphones are known to distort easily using a 2-wire situation.  Most other electret condensors do not have this problem and were designed for only Plug-in-power (1.5v-11v).  I can tape Megadeath with my MKE40's (2-wire) powered by 9v.   

When speaking about the AT853/933/943's the phantom power mod is overrated IMHO.  The mics can only opperate off of slightly more than 9v.  If you would send P48 right to the mics you would fry them.  The 3-wire allows the mics to see the proper amount of voltage, just like the Phantom mod, which is nothing more than Phantom->9v converter.    The 2-wire does not quite give the same power from what I understand.  The phantom mod is only usefull when you only have a phantom supply or you want to use the mics directly to a mixer or studio preamp.  For field recording, the 3-wire is the way to go.  Or you can do the 4.7k mod to the 2-wire and use that as well.  As far as I am concerned, if I had to use a phantom power module and a large preamp I would stick to condensors or LD condensors.  Why use stealthy mics if you have to use Phantom Power and a large preamp?  I think most people bought the AT853's to be stealthy, then realized they need more power.  Next thing you know they have a huge rig.  If you are gonna stick AT853/933/943's then get a 3-wire box or do the 4.7k mod.

my $0.2

[jeromejello]

i'll admit that my knowledge is from my personal experiences from at853 only.  so i dont even know if other mics are capable of recieving this p48 mod... (which is, as you pointed out, really just a way to not fry the mics when hooked up to a phantom powered source by stepping down the volt).

however, there are several smaller stealthable preamps that wont be huge and open only.  sd mp-2, aerco mp-2, sonosax, psp-2, psp-3, and mv-100 come to mind.  these boxes are relatively small and are all stealthable.

the main benefit as i see it of altering my mics was to allow for the adjustable gain coming from a quality pre prior to going into my jb3.  i was able to boost the levels and monitor them (well that and a couple of other cool things).

in all honesty though, i dont know if any of this speculation of pres other than ones like the sound professional, mic madness, or church audio would even be a viable choice when he is running the mics listed and the budget he is alotting.  in fact, i would be inclined to think that even the pres in this paragraph are outside his current budget...

[Chill]

I was hoping to keep the price at about $50, but If I have to I might go with something like this.  Only $80 shipped

http://cgi.ebay.ca/STEREO-MIC-PREAMP-FOR-MD-MP3-MINIDISC-DAT-RECORDERS_W0QQitemZ5868834409QQcategoryZ3281QQcmdZViewItem

I dont see many pres going up for sale over at the yard sale 

Can anyone subjest other pres at a good price?

[anodyne33]

I dont see many pres going up for sale over at the yard sale 

Wow, I was going to rip into this, but there really isn't anything but a minime and a (I think) spoken for V2 over there. Be patient, pres come around all the time. Just not right now.

[Chill]

I dont see many pres going up for sale over at the yard sale 

Wow, I was going to rip into this, but there really isn't anything but a minime and a (I think) spoken for V2 over there. Be patient, pres come around all the time. Just not right now.

What I meant was ones in my price range of under $100,  I was looking at the sold ones as well, to see how much they went for and didn’t see many of them at my pirce range.

Just found this too, looks like it might be perfect, anyone ever use this pre? Preamp link

[Javier Cinakowski]

That Church Audio Pre is just what you need!

[willndmb]

here is a ad-20
doesn't give you "power" for the mics but will give you gain to get the sound louder
also has optical out to run into your iriver

[Chill]

Someone messaged me selling one of these, Looks good to me.  Other then its kind of big.

http://www.reactivesounds.com/spa2.php

Is it just me or do alot of pres seem the be made in canada 

[Javier Cinakowski]

The boost box is a good product.  I don't think they make it anymore.  I would definatly buy it if it is less than $100