Topic: R-09, iRiver HP120, and AT853 self noise comparisons

[SunWizard]

OK I went and recorded some more sample files of a bird house outside my house with 3 baby bluebirds in it chirping fairly quietly from about 6' away.  I am out in the country so no car sounds or other things to interfere.  I think this is a better comparison.  It shows that the internal R-09 mics are not enough gain.  R-09 with AT853 and batt box is clearly the best, very detailed sounding.  These were all at max gain, glasses mounted.  A little bit of wind noise on some even through the tiny foam wind screens.

My stupid iRiver I have only had a few weeks quit working completely and is probably broke after 1 sample, you can see my post about that here: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=68550.0  Hope you have better luck with your iRiver kuuan.  I think I am switching to my R-09 for everything.

R-09 Internal http://www.xyzworks.com/birdR09_int.WAV 
R-09 AT853 direct http://www.xyzworks.com/birdR09_853direct.WAV
R-09 AT853 9v batt http://www.xyzworks.com/birdR09_853bb.WAV
iRiver AT853 9v batt http://www.xyzworks.com/bird_iriverbb853.wav  probably the last file ever for my iRiver       

[SunWizard]

I also note in the iRiver file a clicking sound that I think is the hard drive when it accesses, and think its audible here since we have such high gain.  I had it in my hand about 3' away from the mics but it got the sound somehow.  Its broke now so I can't test that out further.

[TideBleach]

ya that sounds like the h120 hardrive spinning up when its saving data. thats one sensitive mic if it picked that up.

TideBleach

[whatboutbob]

I also note in the iRiver file a clicking sound that I think is the hard drive when it accesses, and think its audible here since we have such high gain.  I had it in my hand about 3' away from the mics but it got the sound somehow.  Its broke now so I can't test that out further.

The clicking that's evident in the first iriver recording sounds like handling noise or at least an external noise (as opposed to anything to do with the iriver).  The sound in the second is indeed the hdd spin-up.  I’ve noted during my tests that it is actually quite evident when using high gain…so keep that sucker pocketed.

[TideBleach]

yeah the sounds arent from the h120 hardware, its the mics picking up the actual hardrive noise when spinning up.

[kuuan]

I remember having read about this clicking noise in the misticriver or rockbox forum and I am quite certain that it had been adressed by Rockbox and that it won't be there if using Rockbox!

[TideBleach]

he is using rockbox and yes rockbox fixed the clicking problem that was in the original firmware. the only reason the sounds are there are becasue his mics are so sensitive they picked up the sound from the hard drive spinning up since it was so quiet in the room.

[SunWizard]

he is using rockbox and yes rockbox fixed the clicking problem that was in the original firmware. the only reason the sounds are there are becasue his mics are so sensitive they picked up the sound from the hard drive spinning up since it was so quiet in the room.

Yes thats right I am using rockbox, recent release.  The bird sample where the clicks are obvious was outdoors and it wasn't as quiet as the room test, and why I was surprised to hear it.  I guess its just more proof how sensitive the AT-853 mics are.

[kuuan]

he is using rockbox and yes rockbox fixed the clicking problem that was in the original firmware. the only reason the sounds are there are becasue his mics are so sensitive they picked up the sound from the hard drive spinning up since it was so quiet in the room.

OK, understood.

SunWizard I am very sorry to hear about your problems with you iriver. Mine is still due to arrive, so I am still all excited about it.

Thank you very much for your new samples. Yes, the 853>bb>R-09 sounds best. The iriver sample, besids the click..rumbles. Is this selfnoise or e.g. an airplane passing?
Whatboutbob, you mention having done your own tests. Did you post your results? I'd SO much like to know how the iriver recordings w/o bb / w bb / compare to AD-20 > iriver recordings!
or to ask differently: Are the iriver's A/D+preamp really as 'noisy' as generally believed? Does it really need something like an AD-20 to go optical in for e.g. recording 'quiet' ambience because otherwise it's self noise would be too high? Or could a bb or a - cheap - selfmade - preamp be sufficient?

[SunWizard]

Thank you very much for your new samples. Yes, the 853>bb>R-09 sounds best. The iriver sample, besids the click..rumbles. Is this selfnoise or e.g. an airplane passing?
Whatboutbob, you mention having done your own tests. Did you post your results? I'd SO much like to know how the iriver recordings w/o bb / w bb / compare to AD-20 > iriver recordings!
or to ask differently: Are the iriver's A/D+preamp really as 'noisy' as generally believed? Does it really need something like an AD-20 to go optical in for e.g. recording 'quiet' ambience because otherwise it's self noise would be too high? Or could a bb or a - cheap - selfmade - preamp be sufficient?

No airplanes anywhere close, I was careful to avoid them while recording.  Maybe a jet way off in the distance?  I would have done another sample to check that but it broke

[kuuan]

thank you once again SunWiz, you have been very helpful indeed.
Damn that your H120 broke. I'd certainly try to claim a new one from the shop, there may be a good chance they will change it.

[treespine]

The first day I got my iRiver I was monitoring the built-in mic with headphones at very loud volume and almost shit my pants when that HD fired up.  Damn that thing is loud.

[whatboutbob]

Whatboutbob, you mention having done your own tests. Did you post your results? I'd SO much like to know how the iriver recordings w/o bb / w bb / compare to AD-20 > iriver recordings!
or to ask differently: Are the iriver's A/D+preamp really as 'noisy' as generally believed? Does it really need something like an AD-20 to go optical in for e.g. recording 'quiet' ambience because otherwise it's self noise would be too high? Or could a bb or a - cheap - selfmade - preamp be sufficient?

The tests I mentioned in that thread were more to detect cell phone interference.  I had no interest in comparing the noise floor or AD of the iriver vs AD20.

Its very difficult to answer your subjective questions.  Some people are content with Giant Squid Omnis running directly into an iriver.  Others complain about a rig that has cost them $10k.  It really depends.  Does AT853>PS2>AD20>H120 sound better to my ears than AT853>bb>H120?  Yes.  How much better?  Who knows?  Is it a lot less portable?  Definitely.

If I can find some time on the weekend I'll try to run a comparison between the AD20 and the H120 for you.

[kuuan]

...Its very difficult to answer your subjective questions.  Some people are content with Giant Squid Omnis running directly into an iriver.  Others complain about a rig that has cost them $10k.  It really depends.  Does AT853>PS2>AD20>H120 sound better to my ears than AT853>bb>H120?  Yes.  How much better?  Who knows?  Is it a lot less portable?  Definitely.

You are very right, quality assessments are subjective. A 'kind of objective' comparison of different rigs should be possible though, and I want 'good' quality', whatever that means, - in my case specially low noise floor, and I am willing to spend some more 100s for this.

I may have disturbed some by being too pressing with my requests, I am sorry for that. Reason is that I am new to audio recording and want to learn too much too fast: I still have one week left in a land where equipment, e.g the R-09 would cost me abt 60% of the prize I'd have to pay 'back home', I already bought an H120 online which has not yet arrived yet, I was not able to test it myself.

If I can find some time on the weekend I'll try to run a comparison between the AD20 and the H120 for you.

that would be...great and very much appreciated!

If there is any way to find out I'd be most curious to find out  what is the weakest link in the irivers:
Is it rather the A/D or the preamp? ( e.g. by comparing the line-in and the mic-in )
- if the A/D is OK, no need to go for a AD-20, an ext. preamp would suffice, ( like this piece favoured by videographers: http://tinyurl.com/qtj7k )
Since there is even a thread named: So..recording with the iRiver finally feasable? possibly there are many who'd be happy to know.

[SunWizard]

The first day I got my iRiver I was monitoring the built-in mic with headphones at very loud volume and almost shit my pants when that HD fired up.  Damn that thing is loud.

Yes that makes the internal mics useless for anything I would record, even voice.