Topic: R-09, iRiver HP120, and AT853 self noise comparisons

[SunWizard]

I just ran a series of tests to compare the gain and self noise of the stealthy combinations of my gear.  There has been several questions posted about this issue since its important for nature recording, so that got me curious.  Here is what I did, I played a 1000hz test tone, medium volume on my stereo and set the record levels the same on each to about -10db.  Then I walked over to the quietest room in the house and recorded for 20 seconds.  The AT-853 were clipped to my glasses since thats how I usually use them.  Then I transferred and played them back on my stereo at loud volume to listen for noise in the quiet room part of each.  Here was the results:

R-09 Internal mics     maxed the gain.                     Inaudible noise, except bad handling noise if handheld at that gain.
R-09 AT853 direct    maxed the gain, high setting.   Inaudible noise.
R-09 AT853 9v batt. 15/30 gain, high setting.         Inaudible noise. Very sensitive on the low end, I heard my heart beat when I cranked up gain!
HP120 AT853 direct    max gain.                           Couldn't get enough gain, and noisy, no good.
HP120 AT853 9v batt. max gain.                           Inaudible noise.

So the best for quiet recordings is the R-09 AT853 9v batt. combo since theres lots of extra gain, and it stays quiet except you start to hear your heartbeat   All the other combos I had to max the gain which means it may not be loud enough for quiet nature sounds without adding gain after transfer which could get noisy.

The iRiver AT853 9v batt combo surprised me with inaudible noise even at max gain since I had read some posts about how noisy it was, and also after I experienced how noisy it was with the AT853 direct into it.

[Brian Skalinder]

Any chance you're able and willing to post the recordings you made for each of the gear combinations listed?

[kuuan]

Thank you very much for your effort to compare the 'selfnoise', the quality of the gain and A/D of your gear.
To me, as a novice to recording, it is surprising that there is no 'sticky' at the top of the forums featuring such comparisons as I thought that how little self noise gear produces must be of outmost importance to the quality of resordings. But I must be wrong, maybe this is so becasue selfnoise doesn't really matter when recording loud music.

Your assessment

The iRiver AT853 9v batt combo surprised me with inaudible noise even at max gain since I had read some posts about how noisy it was, and also after I experienced how noisy it was with the AT853 direct into it.

really is surprising and very good news indeed.

Now I can't wait for my H120 to arrive to try out my AT822>iriver
However in the specs of the AT822, it says:

Warning: The AT822 is designed for battery operation only. Do not attempt to use when phantom power is present. Possible damage to the microphone may result.

hm..any way around? Would even 9 Volts harm the AT822? Has anybody tried out?

( As you know from the other thread I am most curious about the comparison of the A/D and preamp of the AD-20>iriver combo vs. R-09. Now you give me hope that the iriver with a battery box only, or if I can't use any with the AT822, an external preamp would be 'quiet' enough...that is if there is any small and inexpensive peamp available, or I can make one myself. If not the AD-20 would make more sense after all, or I'll change to the R-09 )

[SunWizard]

Now I can't wait for my H120 to arrive to try out my AT822>iriver
However in the specs of the AT822, it says:

Warning: The AT822 is designed for battery operation only. Do not attempt to use when phantom power is present. Possible damage to the microphone may result.

hm..any way around? Would even 9 Volts harm the AT822? Has anybody tried out?

( As you know from the other thread I am most curious about the comparison of the A/D and preamp of the AD-20>iriver combo vs. R-09. Now you give me hope that the iriver with a battery box only, or if I can't use any with the AT822, an external preamp would be 'quiet' enough...that is if there is any small and inexpensive peamp available, or I can make one myself. If not the AD-20 would make more sense after all, or I'll change to the R-09 )

Be careful with the AT822 into the iRiver, I can't find a switch in rockbox to turn off the plug power.  Does anyone here know if rockbox has a way to turn the plug power off?  If not you probably should not try the AT822 (and many other mics) direct into the iRiver.

I will work on posting some samples.  Although its kind of boring since they will just be quietness.

[petur]

Be careful with the AT822 into the iRiver, I can't find a switch in rockbox to turn off the plug power.  Does anyone here know if rockbox has a way to turn the plug power off?  If not you probably should not try the AT822 (and many other mics) direct into the iRiver.

The iriver always provides around 3.7V plug power on the line-in connector. Hardwired afaik.

[SunWizard]

Here are the sample files from the tests.  Each is about 5 seconds from the quiet room.  Remember these are at max volume in most cases,  you can hear my heartbeat and breathing in the ones with AT-853 and battery box if you crank them up.  I never knew these mics were sensitive enough on the low end to pick up my heartbeat by being about 1" from temples aimed forwards!  So its not representative of levels most tapers would use, but might be used for nature sounds, for example my footsteps or the creak of opening a door would light the peak light.  And I wasnt real scientific: didn't attempt to keep the wife and kids from making noise in the rest of the house, and didn't hold my breath, so the small variations between these are not solely the equipment.  I did attempt to set them to the same gain using a 1khz test tone.

R-09 Internal mics     http://www.xyzworks.com/R09_ints.WAV
R-09 AT853 direct    http://www.xyzworks.com/R09_853s.WAV
R-09 AT853 9v batt. http://www.xyzworks.com/R09_bb853s.WAV
HP120 AT853 9v batt. http://www.xyzworks.com/iriverbb853.wav

[SunWizard]

I just played these back on my other computer with bad speakers with bad sound card and there is noise with them.  So what you hear will depend on the quality of your soundcard, amp, and speakers.

[funkoff13]

I think the r09 is about +70dB of gain on the mic high gain, full trim.. So that is a lot.

I was hanging out with friends yesterday.. brought the r09 along in case there was a good opportunity to record their 2 year old son.  I ended up playing with the vintage fisher price record player a bit.. I was thinking heh, I'll post some samples to TS..  Then my friend's wife sat down with the boy and started singing twinkle little star (in a surprisingly good singing voice I have never heard).. Holy cow.. This is it.. I bolted into the next room to grab the r09, got it rolling (love the fast startup!) and discretely returned to the room.. only to have my buddy come in and completely interrupt this perfect moment by suggesting we head downstairs to the men's hang out area.. Kid started wailing and the moment was over..

Is the r09 good for somebody starting out in recording?  Should I go with flash media or DAT?  Seems there are good arguments on this board for both.  Will someone please help me with this decision? 

Thanks!

[SunWizard]

Yes its good enough.  Better than DAT but more expensive too.  It depends on how you are using it, what kind of shows,mics, budget, many different questions.  I recommend reading this thread: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=65175.0

[kuuan]

1.samples:

I will work on posting some samples.  Although its kind of boring since they will just be quietness.

Finally had a chance to listen to them ( downloaded, burned on CD, played on home stereo )
They are anything but boring, great, very much appreciated, like my favourite music to my ears!

The sample 853>bb>R-09 sticks out with an additional low hum. Where does this come from? From the BB? - no, as it is not there at the 853>bb>iriver sample. So it comes from the R-09? again no, as it is not there with the other r-09 samples..odd..?

The self noise of the other three is very similar, surprisingly the iriver with bb is not louder, even seems more quiet. The volume of 853>bb>iriver is the most quiet though, after adjusting the volume to the same level I hardly could make out any difference in selfnoise of these 3 samples.

Generally there is quite a bit of selfnoise...well, I lack experience and don't know if other 'rigs' would produce much less selfnoise. As you know I'd be most curious how a 853<AD-20>iriver recoding would compare!

2. AT822<rockboxed iriver:

In the specs of the AT822, it says:

Warning: The AT822 is designed for battery operation only. Do not attempt to use when phantom power is present. Possible damage to the microphone may result.

Be careful with the AT822 into the iRiver, I can't find a switch in rockbox to turn off the plug power.  Does anyone here know if rockbox has a way to turn the plug power off?  If not you probably should not try the AT822 (and many other mics) direct into the iRiver.

The iriver always provides around 3.7V plug power on the line-in connector.

phuu, so the first thing I must find out is if I can use the AT822 with the Rockboxed iriver at all!
Even 3,7 Volt could harm the mic? Maybe must start a new thread asking about this!
I wanted to try the AT822 even with a 9 Volt battery box hoping that it would be high 48V phantom power only that could damage the mic.
If even 3,7V is too much, could I turn it off using standard iriver firmware?

3.my personal situation - of which you and Brian, maybe others are aware:
If even I can't try AT822>bb>iriver, maybe not even AT822>rockboxed iriver, could I try a preamp?
Would a preamp even be better than a bb?  Maybe I am lucky and can score a small preamp cheaply as I will be in Shanghai in abt. 10 days, later in Bangkok.
AT822>preamp>irver could be worth a try, if that is not satisfactory I could get SP-CMC4s + battery box or the AD-20 for my iriver, or the R-09..., thank you so much helping me to find out!

[whatboutbob]

The sample 853>bb>R-09 sticks out with an additional low hum. Where does this come from? From the BB? - no, as it is not there at the 853>bb>iriver sample. So it comes from the R-09? again no, as it is not there with the other r-09 samples..odd..?

I'm curious too.

[SunWizard]

That low sound is my heartbeat!  I noticed it when I saw the level meters move up and down one bar in perfect sync to my heartbeat, and why I mentioned it in my posts.

[whatboutbob]

That low sound is my heartbeat!  I noticed it when I saw the level meters move up and down one bar in perfect sync to my heartbeat, and why I mentioned it in my posts.

To my ears there's something else there unless you have a rather loud pacemaker.

Its more of a constant electronic hum...

Thanks for doing this btw.

FWIW, my 4061 > SP-bbox > r09 had no hum except for an a/c unit in the background.

I couldn't hear it for the banjo even if it was there

[SunWizard]

Could be something the wife or kids were doing, running a fan or our water pressure pump.  There were other things going on in the house.  Could even be the compact flourescent light bulb in the room 3' from the mics. It is unbelievably sensitive with the battery box plus high gain cranked up!  Doing the tests again would probably be the only way to determine, but I don't want to do it again.

[SunWizard]

And the reason to not do it again is that I think what we are hearing here mainly is noises in my house far more than any self noise of the units, because they all are very low noise.  Probably a much better test would be to go record some actual nature sounds, because the response of the exact same mics seems to be different connected to the iriver than the R-09.