Topic: Blumlein

[napa]

when setting up blumlein with LD's, is it XY 90 degrees setup with the figure 8's or one pointed straight to the sound source and parallel at 90 degrees (+).

[rowjimmy]

Fig 8's XY 90degrees. I believe the other you're describing is MS.

here's a good photo of some 414s in blumlein.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/chris.burmajster/Coincident.htm

And an excellent page, probably referenced elsewhere on the site (as it appears to be hosted by a member of the site )

http://www.nickspicks.com/faq-stereoplacement.htm

blumlein is second on the list there. Diagrams and description and what not. It also discussed MS.

[Gutbucket]

X/Y.

But, you can point one directly at the source and one parallel and record M/S. when decoded (either prior to reaching the recorder or afterwards in post) the resulting signal will be the same as X/Y Blumlein.  A. Blumlein invented both techniques and others, but his name is usually associated with X/Y crossed fig-8's.

[RebelRebel]

when setting up blumlein with LD's, is it XY 90 degrees setup with the figure 8's or one pointed straight to the sound source and parallel at 90 degrees (+).

blumlein is 90 degrees, crossed figure of 8s. Because of the included angle of blumlein, it is IMPERATIVE that you move the array far enough back so that the mics can "see" the entire ensemble. Anything outside of that angle will produce phase anomalies..

in order to get the full effects of blumlein, playback speakers should also be at 90 degrees. Beware of bad acoustics... Blumlein arrays get a LOT of room....

I would rather use blumlein than any other technique , provided that acoustics are good and the size of the ensemble will fit into the angle.

IMHO, NOTHING beats a blumlein pair for realism , imaging, and clarity..

[eric.B]

when setting up blumlein with LD's, is it XY 90 degrees setup with the figure 8's or one pointed straight to the sound source and parallel at 90 degrees (+).

blumlein sounds grate if the room acoustics are good or outdoor..    run close, but not too close so that the soundsource is "outside" the pickup patterns of the "xy" spread(like teddy said)..  It produces the best soundstaging Ive heard..   not only left/right seperation, but you actually get back/front distance clues, which sound GRATE through headphones or a good playback..   and yes..  m/s is one mic pointed forward and the other parallel to sound source(which also sounds real good IMO)

[dnsacks]

Note -- M/S (mid/Side) requires the center mic (pointing at the sound source) to be set to cardiod pattern and the side mic set to figure 8.  M/S is not run with both mics in the figure 8 pattern.

[RebelRebel]

Note -- M/S (mid/Side) requires the center mic (pointing at the sound source) to be set to cardiod pattern and the side mic set to figure 8.  M/S is not run with both mics in the figure 8 pattern.

actually the mid doesnt have to be cardiod. It can be hypercard, omni, subcard..but the side has to be fig.8

[dnsacks]

Having the mid set to omni would produce an INTERESTING polar pattern

[beanstalk]

Having the mid set to omni would produce an INTERESTING polar pattern

Here's a show with omni mid and figure 8 side (LSD2 (fob, dfc, m/s, m=omni, s=fig8))

http://www.archive.org/details/sci2005-03-13.flac16

[audBall]

MS can be run with any pattern as the mid...even fig-8.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=66414.0

[Gutbucket]

M/S with an omni center decodes as two cardiods @180 degrees (back to back).
M/S with a Fig-8 center decodes as two fig-8's @90 deg (blumlein pair).
M/S with a cardiod center decodes as two hyper cards @135 (I think).

The above assumes equal weighting for the signal matrixing (no adustment of the m/s ratio to vary the center intensity or stereo spread).
Changing the ratio changes the polar patern and the included angle.  There's a cool diagram showing all the various polar patterns and included angles for various centers and mixining ratios that's in a post here somewhere.  I think it's from an F. Alton Everest textbook.

[lotusbudds]

when setting up blumlein with LD's, is it XY 90 degrees setup with the figure 8's or one pointed straight to the sound source and parallel at 90 degrees (+).

in order to get the full effects of blumlein, playback speakers should also be at 90 degrees. Beware of bad acoustics... Blumlein arrays get a LOT of room....

I would rather use blumlein than any other technique , provided that acoustics are good and the size of the ensemble will fit into the angle.

IMHO, NOTHING beats a blumlein pair for realism , imaging, and clarity..

my takeaway is that Blumlein is sub optimal for recording in a bar where stand is typically off center and angle requirement is not satisfied. correct ??

[rowjimmy]

If you are in a noisey location and out of proximity of the performance (off center, near the bottle clanking barrel) You might want to rethink blumlein.

That said, some of my favorite live recordings (for sound quality, at least) are blumlein onstage or @ the lip in bars/clubs.


On a side note this thread got me poking around and I found something of note that may have been mentioned elsewhere. Since Nov. '05 the 744t can now "perform b-format-to-stereo" on the fly while still recording all four channels from your soundfield st350. Handy for monitoring...

There's a dream rig.

[Gutbucket]

There's a dream rig.

Oh yeah! and with just two pieces of kit. Or you could substitute the Josephson C700s and do the same thing with just 3 channels (no Z height info). {edit} it's two crossed fig-8's and an omni in a single mic body.

[WiFiJeff]

There's a dream rig.

Oh yeah! and with just two pieces of kit. Or you could substitute the Josephson C700s and do the same thing with just 3 channels (no Z height info). {edit} it's two crossed fig-8's and an omni in a single mic body.

Yeah, and it runs about $7k.  Plus you'd need a mixer with three channels of phantom power.  I don't think there's a 744 mod that will do this yet.

Jeff