Topic: Edirol R-09: a few recording and battery ?'s

[floete]

okay, i went out and got an r-09 and like it so far.  i am a journalist and am going to use it to record in-field interviews.  for recording, i tried using AGC but felt it tamped down everything too much, so I'm back to fiddling with the sliders.  my problem is, once i'm in the field, i can't go and check my levels; what they are in the beginning is what they're going to have to be for the duration.  anyone got an idea what level i might set it at for *most* conditions.  we're not talking about huge sounds, but voices moving in and away, louder then softer, with maybe some typical restaurant noise at times.  i'm thinking "25".

i understand the battery life is about 4 hrs with regular AAs.  are there any batteries that will extend this and, if so, by about how much?  also, what impacts battery life in a machine like this; ie, are there any internal variables that i might futz with to prolong the life o the battery?

thanks for the help!

[SunWizard]

I get 8 hours with 2200maH NiMh rechargable batterys, recording at 16/44.1.  Don't know any tricks to prolong, but thats long!

[floete]

interesting and good to know.  you say you get 8 recording at 16/44.  does it make any difference, battery life wise, if i'm recording at, say,  44/mp3-320?

[hyperplane]

I'm not stating this from experience, but you *should* be able to get more recording time at 320 kbps MP3 than at 16/44.1 WAV format. The reason being: it's less data to write, and therefore is probably consuming less battery power. Regardless, you can get a 4-pack of the 15-minute 2200 mah rechargeable AAs for under $30, and you can charge them up and be set for a full 16+ hour day worth of recording.

[guysonic]

okay, i went out and got an r-09 and like it so far.  i am a journalist and am going to use it to record in-field interviews.  for recording, i tried using AGC but felt it tamped down everything too much, so I'm back to fiddling with the sliders.  my problem is, once i'm in the field, i can't go and check my levels; what they are in the beginning is what they're going to have to be for the duration.  anyone got an idea what level i might set it at for *most* conditions.  we're not talking about huge sounds, but voices moving in and away, louder then softer, with maybe some typical restaurant noise at times.  i'm thinking "25".

i understand the battery life is about 4 hrs with regular AAs.  are there any batteries that will extend this and, if so, by about how much?  also, what impacts battery life in a machine like this; ie, are there any internal variables that i might futz with to prolong the life o the battery?

thanks for the help!

Most of my customers doing field work do NOT like using rechargeables for reliability and charging issues.  So using regular akalines, expect at least 4-5 hours depending on ambient temps; higher temps give longer use.  There are two choices for non-rechargeable AA cells that should be considered for longer than regular alkaline run times. 

One is a new formulation of alkaline cell with the word OXY in the name. 

Made by both Sony and Panasonic with slightly different names. 

Panasonic uses the moniker OXYRIDE EXTREME POWER and Sony calls their version 'digital3 shot' on the package, and 'OXY NICKEL PRIMARY' on the individual cells. 

These cells cost about 30%-50% more than regular alkaline, and will last 30-50% LONGER than typical alkaline, so expect at least 6-8 hours running time.

The other type of AA cell is Energizer's L91 photo lithium that should give at least 9 hours recording ability, works without significant loss of running time at below zero temperatures, and is much lighter in weight than alkaline cells so packing spares is easier, but much more costly to purchase than the previous types mentioned.

In regards to field recording where levels vary quite a bit and auto level is mostly unacceptable I suggest the following to my customers doing similar work.  Invest in a larger capactiy flash card, and record using 24bit/44.1K WAV file instead of MP3.
Then set manual record levels at 12-to-25 dB BELOW 0 dB VU maximum. 

In so doing the recording will rarely see an overload regardless of what happens unexpectedly, and the 24 bit depth WAV format allows for NO LOSS OF AUDIO QUALITY for having very low average VU levels (this is different from 16 bit depth recording in this regard).  Afterward, simply do the necessary post editing (like normalization or similar raising of average recorded levels) to bring the edited version up to normal listening VU levels, and convert to 16 bit depth WAV if desired, or encode the 24 bit directly to MP3 format.  Using this technique, very low level recording with tons of headroom will always sound excellent, and unintentional overloads are virtually eliminated.

Also, there is little or NO difference in battery run times between MP3 or WAV file recording maybe because MP3 is more computer encoding process intensive, while WAV is simply more data write-to-flash intensive.   

So get a good quality large capacity flash card (some draw less power to write than others), set to record manually at ~12-to-25 dB dB peak level below 0 dB maximum, and go out and get the action without concern for overloads regardless of working conditions.

[floete]

wow guysonic thanks for the vvvvery complete rundown, very helpful indeed!

among other difficulties, however, is that i have to set the vu levels and start recording before i enter the situation that i want to record.  iow, i can't sets the levels according to what i'm actually recording, only according to what i more-or-less expect to record, and i don't have the experience to make that kind of guess yet.  mainly it's going to be a single voice in a room up to fairly loud cocktail-party chatter in a room.  got any off-the-cuff level settings i might futz around with?

before reading your response, i went down to radio shack and returned with a sandisk 2 gig card, not the ultra 2, just the regular one.  for voice recording, do you think that's okay?  my main issue here, though, is that, with 2 gigs, i'm not going to be able to get enuf recording time using the 24bit/44.1K WAV setting -- only 2 hours.  i'd go with a 4 gig card but, since i gather various problems have arisen using 4 gig cards, i can't take the chance of something going wrong.  so i guess i'm kind of stuck here in mp3 land, since i need a minimum of four hours recording time (and would of course prefer more).  but at least, thanks to you, i now know how i'd like to have things set up even if i can't get there at this time.  i really appreciate it, and look forward to any other thoughts you might have (like maybe you recently came upon a pretty-near-perfect 4 gig card that's also miraculously available at a Shack or a Staples ....)

anyway, thanks again!

[Sebastian]

among other difficulties, however, is that i have to set the vu levels and start recording before i enter the situation that i want to record.  iow, i can't sets the levels according to what i'm actually recording, only according to what i more-or-less expect to record, and i don't have the experience to make that kind of guess yet.

You can adjust the levels while recording, so you don't have to guess

[floete]

sebastian: i guess i was a little unclear.  what i mean to say is that the circumstances i operate under *require* that i set the levels *before* i enter them; iow, when i go into the situation, the recorder will be in a little case, with recording on, and i won't be able to fiddle with the settings because i don't want to be seen fiddling with the settings.  i hope that's a little clearer.

btw/ i want to give a little plug to the place where i bought my edirol, samedaymusic.com.  fantastic service.  price was 399 with free shipping but you could pay an extra $2 and get 2-day shipping.  i placed my order at 4 pm, ponyed up my $2, and the package arrived not two days later but the very next day, around 10am.  now that's fast!  (plus, it's got a 60-day return policy, not the usual 30-day.  sweet!)

[guysonic]

wow guysonic thanks for the vvvvery complete rundown, very helpful indeed!

among other difficulties, however, is that i have to set the vu levels and start recording before i enter the situation that i want to record.  iow, i can't sets the levels according to what i'm actually recording, only according to what i more-or-less expect to record, and i don't have the experience to make that kind of guess yet.  mainly it's going to be a single voice in a room up to fairly loud cocktail-party chatter in a room.  got any off-the-cuff level settings i might futz around with?

before reading your response, i went down to radio shack and returned with a sandisk 2 gig card, not the ultra 2, just the regular one.  for voice recording, do you think that's okay?  my main issue here, though, is that, with 2 gigs, i'm not going to be able to get enuf recording time using the 24bit/44.1K WAV setting -- only 2 hours.  i'd go with a 4 gig card but, since i gather various problems have arisen using 4 gig cards, i can't take the chance of something going wrong.  so i guess i'm kind of stuck here in mp3 land, since i need a minimum of four hours recording time (and would of course prefer more).  but at least, thanks to you, i now know how i'd like to have things set up even if i can't get there at this time.  i really appreciate it, and look forward to any other thoughts you might have (like maybe you recently came upon a pretty-near-perfect 4 gig card that's also miraculously available at a Shack or a Staples ....)

anyway, thanks again!

Experience seems the ONLY way to know where the REC level needs be PRE_SET in manual adjust mode for having plenty of headroom against overloads.  Settings always depend on the type/model of mic, a particular model deck, and the loudest sounds in any particular circumstance.

There is no substitute for making notes of the deck settings found to work well for your interests, and then repeating those settings next time out in similar circumstances.

So if not able to do adjustments when doing the important stuff needing lowest profile, then suggest finding a similar situation where you can observe the deck's VU and setting as likely the best tactic. Set the deck/mic in exactly the same place you'd normally use the equipment, but this time look at the VU levels and adjust the REC level for plenty of headroom as discussed.

Places like a noisy neighborhood bar at happy hour seems similar to your usual ambient, and this should at least give useful setting information appropriate for other social events requiring utmost descretion.

It does seem having two 2-GIG flash cards marked #1/#2 is needed, and changing before the first has filled up should be done by noting the start time or discreetly running a stopwatch for knowing the time to duck into the head or some other out-of-sight place to swap the cards.

Regular Sandisk should work OK for 24/44.1K wav recording.  Best to try out new cards (both recording/transfer) before commiting for important events. 

Good practice to always starting a new project with in-the-deck formated flash.

Until Edirol makes firmware upgrades, at least some 4 GIG flash capacity cards are reported to work OK (what makes of SD flash??? does it matter???) but still need formating in an external card reader, and this may be the cause of some 4 gig size cards not being so reliable in the deck?

[floete]

thanks again guysonic, great advice throughout.  went and got some energizer L91's, 4 for $10, not that expensive, i don't think.  and now i'm about to head back to radio shack for another sd card.

i'm pretty much totally unfamiliar with level setting, so riddle me this when you say, "set manual record levels at 12-to-25 dB BELOW 0 dB VU maximum" -- if i'm looking at the VU meters on the R-09, what i want to do is have the flickering bars rise at maximum somewhere between the #12 on the meter and halfway between the #20 and #30 markings on the meter.  correctamundo? 

and when you say, "convert to 16 bit depth WAV if desired, or encode the 24 bit directly to MP3 format," what would be the purpose of either of these conversions?

and, finally, when you refer to "normalization or similar raising of average recorded levels," let's say I'm using Audacity.  It offers "amplify" and "normalize"  Can you tell me under what circumstances I'd use one of those over the other?  i'm just a little lost with this stuff and am trying to get up to speed and comfortable before... tuesday.  and, of course, you've been a huge help.  again thanks.

[guysonic]

thanks again guysonic, great advice throughout.  went and got some energizer L91's, 4 for $10, not that expensive, i don't think.  and now i'm about to head back to radio shack for another sd card.

"i'm pretty much totally unfamiliar with level setting, so riddle me this when you say, "set manual record levels at 12-to-25 dB BELOW 0 dB VU maximum" -- if i'm looking at the VU meters on the R-09, what i want to do is have the flickering bars rise at maximum somewhere between the #12 on the meter and halfway between the #20 and #30 markings on the meter.  correctamundo?" 

REPLY: Yes, you seem to understand the tactic suggested. When doing the 24bit/44.1K test recording in the live situation for knowing deck what deck pre-settings will work for you on Tuesday, adjust the manual REC level so loudest sounds show VU peaks leaving at least 12 dB of headroom below the 0 dB maximum. 

"and when you say, "convert to 16 bit depth WAV if desired, or encode the 24 bit directly to MP3 format," what would be the purpose of either of these conversions?"

REPLY: I am not sure about how you have been using your past MP3 recordings, and if you need the smaller file sizes from MP3 type files in your project, then the suggestion for converting 24bit/44.1 wav directly to MP3 may be appropriate.  However, if you can use the raw 24bit/44.1 wave for your purpose, then no conversion is needed

"and, finally, when you refer to "normalization or similar raising of average recorded levels," let's say I'm using Audacity.  It offers "amplify" and "normalize"  Can you tell me under what circumstances I'd use one of those over the other?  i'm just a little lost with this stuff and am trying to get up to speed and comfortable before... tuesday.  and, of course, you've been a huge help.  again thanks."

REPLY: When recording at lower than normal levels to gain needed headroom for avoiding overloads, the playback of the recording is going to be at much lower loudness, and usually needs to be amplified by ~8-to-15 dB to better hear the recording during the editing process.  After doing all needed editing, the last step is (optional) normalization. 

This process will find the loudest portion of the recording and the normalization proces will automaticially apply one gain to the entire edited file making the loudest portion at or very near maximum VU. The editing program will allow you to set just what that 'normalized' maximum signal level will be in percentage (100% or less) or in dB (0dB or some minus number), and amplify the file by exactly the right about of gain to acheive this.

Suggest you read the help section of your editing program as most have excellent explanation for what each feature does and why it is useful.   

[floete]

guysoniic: got it and all's understood.  i really appreciate your efforts on my behalf.  and i will keep you posted here on how it all turns out! thanks!

[Gutbucket]

In regards to field recording where levels vary quite a bit and auto level is mostly unacceptable I suggest the following to my customers doing similar work.  Invest in a larger capactiy flash card, and record using 24bit/44.1K WAV file instead of MP3.
Then set manual record levels at 12-to-25 dB BELOW 0 dB VU maximum. 

In so doing the recording will rarely see an overload regardless of what happens unexpectedly, and the 24 bit depth WAV format allows for NO LOSS OF AUDIO QUALITY for having very low average VU levels (this is different from 16 bit depth recording in this regard).  Afterward, simply do the necessary post editing (like normalization or similar raising of average recorded levels) to bring the edited version up to normal listening VU levels, and convert to 16 bit depth WAV if desired, or encode the 24 bit directly to MP3 format.  Using this technique, very low level recording with tons of headroom will always sound excellent, and unintentional overloads are virtually eliminated.

This got me thinking..  I record 24 bit WAVs with on a 4GB card, so it doesn't really apply to me, but assuming no work in post, if someone wants to record to MP3 format and that's the final quality desired, will the R-09 encode greater dynamic range and allow for less stringent control over record levels set to 24 bit mode when doing a MP3 encode?.  Both the 16/24bit option and the ?/44.1/48khz option is selectable in record set up when MP3 file format is used. Likewise, does setting the sample rate to 48khz vs. 44.1 affect the quality of the encoded MP3 file in any way?  This all assumes no level adjustment/normalization in post, in which case it would be sonically advantageous to edit the 24 bit WAV before encoding to MP3.

Thoughts?

[guysonic]

In regards to field recording where levels vary quite a bit and auto level is mostly unacceptable I suggest the following to my customers doing similar work.  Invest in a larger capactiy flash card, and record using 24bit/44.1K WAV file instead of MP3.
Then set manual record levels at 12-to-25 dB BELOW 0 dB VU maximum. 

In so doing the recording will rarely see an overload regardless of what happens unexpectedly, and the 24 bit depth WAV format allows for NO LOSS OF AUDIO QUALITY for having very low average VU levels (this is different from 16 bit depth recording in this regard).  Afterward, simply do the necessary post editing (like normalization or similar raising of average recorded levels) to bring the edited version up to normal listening VU levels, and convert to 16 bit depth WAV if desired, or encode the 24 bit directly to MP3 format.  Using this technique, very low level recording with tons of headroom will always sound excellent, and unintentional overloads are virtually eliminated.

This got me thinking..  I record 24 bit WAVs with on a 4GB card, so it doesn't really apply to me, but assuming no work in post, if someone wants to record to MP3 format and that's the final quality desired, will the R-09 encode greater dynamic range and allow for less stringent control over record levels set to 24 bit mode when doing a MP3 encode?.  Both the 16/24bit option and the ?/44.1/48khz option is selectable in record set up when MP3 file format is used. Likewise, does setting the sample rate to 48khz vs. 44.1 affect the quality of the encoded MP3 file in any way?  This all assumes no level adjustment/normalization in post, in which case it would be sonically advantageous to edit the 24 bit WAV before encoding to MP3.

Thoughts?

Might ASSUME there is no loudness or quality difference in bit depth/sample rate selection in MP3 or wav.  Advantages of bit depth/sample rate selection apply to both lossy encoded MP3 or direct A/D to wav file recording. 

If this assumption is true, then advantages of using lossy compression MP3 over wav file is again: the audio file quality verses file size compromise. 

Furthermore, recordings made using either mp3 or wav format at lower VU level for headroom advantages (at 24bit depth) will mostly be at too low a level for final output, and therefore need amplification or normalization edit process. 

If recorded master file is MP3, then conversion to wav some other type of editable file is needed.

I know of NO editor directly adjusting the file loudness level in native MP3 format, at least without first doing a file type conversion, and then re-encoding back to mp3; and this seems an (undesireable) double quality loss conversion process most would want to avoid.

[floete]

I seem to be missing something, probably because the level of discourse is way over my head.  but let's say I don't need the ultimate in audio quality.  why don't i just record using the best mp3 settings possible on the r09, set the vu levels on the low side and then, afterwards, in audacity, use the amplify and normalize features to bring everything up to snuff -- at a reduced quality vs wav but sufficient for voice work that's not going to be used on, say, radio and so on.  I'd get a lot more time out of my sd cards (eventho at this point i do have 2 2gb cards).
  i just did this on a test mp3 file i have and it seemed to work okay.
  what am i missing here?