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Author Topic: Edirol R-09 input woes  (Read 137099 times)

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Offline JD

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Re: Edirol R-09 input woes
« Reply #90 on: December 18, 2006, 11:36:59 AM »
Well I am doing a little research looking for these threaded mini jacks. For the socket side I found these

http://www.cui.com/srchresults.asp?catky=619701&subcatky=749477&subcatky2=559017

I think that the male threads on these jacks are intended for panel mounting with a nut, but if the thread is the same diameter and pitch as the ones found on the plug, I don't see why you couldn't  let the extend a little and thread the plug onto it.

Hmmm, now to find a mini plug that has the female threads.....
Mics: DPA 4022, 4060; Nevaton MC51, MCE400; Gefell sms2000, m20, m21, m27
Pres: DPA MMA6000; Grace V2; Portico 5012; Sonosax SX-M2
Recorders: Edirol R09hr, Sound Devices 722

Offline zhianosatch

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Re: Edirol R-09 input woes
« Reply #91 on: December 18, 2006, 11:40:07 AM »
been saying for years that we need a reliable screw-on mini plug. i wouldn't be surprised if mixing and matching male and female connectors from different manufacturers, however, would open the door to a lot of problems. it would be better if the two were manufactured and sold together. anyone found a plug/jack like this?

Offline JD

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Re: Edirol R-09 input woes
« Reply #92 on: December 18, 2006, 12:39:37 PM »
Ok, here is what i found out.

Panel mount 3.5mm sockets have a 6 x .5 mm male thread. They can be used with a locking plug such as

http://www.markertek.com/Product.asp?baseItem=30%2D296%2DBK&cat=CABLESCONN&subcat=AUDIOADAPT&prodClass=35AD&mfg=&search=0&off=

At least 1 1/2 mm of the threads on the socket should be extruding to make a complete connection.

I also found this female cable end that can be threaded to the above connector to make an extension cord or a pigtail hardwired to a device.

http://www.markertek.com/Product.asp?baseItem=30%2D297&cat=CABLESCONN&subcat=AUDIOADAPT&prodClass=35AD&mfg=&search=0&off=

Both of these plug ends linked here are gold plated according to the Calrad site.

If I can find a panel mount connector that can be easily fit into my r-09, I think I am going to go this rout and make up new cables with the locking ends. It would be worth it to me just for the better connections.
  ;D ;D ;D
« Last Edit: December 18, 2006, 01:00:00 PM by Jaledu »
Mics: DPA 4022, 4060; Nevaton MC51, MCE400; Gefell sms2000, m20, m21, m27
Pres: DPA MMA6000; Grace V2; Portico 5012; Sonosax SX-M2
Recorders: Edirol R09hr, Sound Devices 722

Offline pgoelz

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Re: Edirol R-09 input woes
« Reply #93 on: December 18, 2006, 01:02:45 PM »
Been reading this with interest.....

Why not remove the connector altogether?  Make up a short pigtail with two female 1/8" jacks or a single stereo jack, solder it to the board and route the cable(s) out the existing hole?  It would be even lower profile than a right angle plug since the cables and attached connectors could be folded back against the recorder body.  And it would totally eliminate all stress on the PCB. 

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Offline WiFiJeff

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Re: Edirol R-09 input woes
« Reply #94 on: December 18, 2006, 01:36:15 PM »
Quote
Now a "screw in 1/8 plug" I've never seen, or heard of, before. Got any pics of said jack you could post?

The only place I have seen this type of plug is the output jack on my DPA MMA6000 preamp. It has about 1/8" of male threads sticking out past flush, that the mating plug threads onto. Makes for a nice secure connection.

Problem is, other than the cable that I bought from DPA, I have not found this type of plug anywhere.
If these ends and sockets where readily available, I think I would mod my R-09 with one in a heartbeat.

I have no camera as of now, so I can not post any pictures, maybe someone else with a mma-6000 can.

When I first got the MMA6000, DPA sent me a cable with the screw-on at BOTH ends.  Since the shaft is shorter below the threaded part, this meant a really bad connection to my recorder!  They replaced it with wirh a cable with one screw-in end and one normal 1/8", but I found that if you run the preamp in a pocket with the gain knobs on top you are stressing the wire on the screw-in on the bottom, I am more comfortable using a right-angle 1/8" cable and looping it up over the top.

Jeff

Offline Carlos E. Martinez

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Re: Edirol R-09 input woes
« Reply #95 on: December 18, 2006, 02:10:07 PM »
Panel mount 3.5mm sockets have a 6 x .5 mm male thread. They can be used with a locking plug such as

Yes, I also wonder if the threaded jack will lock and go straight down into a standard threaded 1/8" jacks, or if the collar needs to be higher.

Just asked Calrad if they make a mating pcb jack for the locking plug.

Offline Carlos E. Martinez

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Re: Edirol R-09 input woes
« Reply #96 on: December 18, 2006, 03:19:09 PM »
Why not remove the connector altogether?  Make up a short pigtail with two female 1/8" jacks or a single stereo jack, solder it to the board and route the cable(s) out the existing hole?  It would be even lower profile than a right angle plug since the cables and attached connectors could be folded back against the recorder body.  And it would totally eliminate all stress on the PCB. 

There are two questions we are discussing, related of course, but should be separated in order to deal with them:

1) Contact force and/or contact surface

2) Cable stress

The better connectors deal with these problems separately. But space limitations in many portable equipment brought also a curse: small connectors. Supply connectors, input/output connectors (1/8" types), interface connectors (USB, 1394). None of them locking types.

It's time somebody did something over that. The locking 1/8" might be a good starting point. Sony is using them on the FX1 camera and on their wireless; Sennheiser is using them on their wireless; Comtek is using them on their wireless. There might be others that I don't know about. But I think it's time high quality portable recorders implemented it too, and perhaps manufacturers may start thinking about it. Succesful upgradings of these connectors may help there.   

Upgrading the original connectors, if we can do it, will improve matters. Even if things will not be totally solved, because the jack still has to be well secured to the recorder's body, we should also deal with the other question. Which is cable stress.

So as I see it, we should also implement several things, both on input and output connections. All of them. The R-09 has no locking connectors, but we can secure the cable a bit on the main body.

Like gluing a velcro piece on the unit's back and putting mating velcro strips on the unit's cables: mics, headphones, supply, USB. After plugging the connectors in we do a loop on the cable and secure it by the velcro strips on the main body.

That might provide a longer and better life for our tools. 

Offline guysonic

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Re: Edirol R-09 input woes
« Reply #97 on: December 18, 2006, 03:35:00 PM »
Obviously there are far better connectors than we are finding on mini-recorders being sold for low cost these days.

Obviously the errors made with R-09 have been mostly corrected by Edirol/Roland with fixes to now be not much worse than normally experienced with mini-jack type inputs.  

The point I see being missed here is there are easy, practical ways of minimizing the stresses placed on these jacks so they work for the life of the product without resorting to cumbersome redesign efforts to make these decks into something they are not.  

Sure, some of you are capable of doing extensive modifications to the deck, and then to all the equipment you connect up using specialized connectors, but this is not a solution for many of us concerned with reliable recording using miniaturized equipment.

As an equipment designer, the best tact is produce low stress interfaces using the same type of connectors as supplied with these recorders, and not demand modification be done on the decks themselves.  This has worked well in the past, and will continue to provide adequate solution for needed reliability for connecting gear to mini-decks with 3.5 mm jacks.

Velcro attached cord securing is a +7 year old tip on my site suggested for minidisc decks using small molded right-angle plugs with flexible cord, and will work with the R-09 with if securing the back cover seams with tape as illustrated in the review atwww.sonicstudios.com/r-09revw.htm 

Using straight plugs still leaves open good chance of jack-damaging stress from an accidental bump on the plug's long length dimension.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2006, 03:43:44 PM by guysonic »
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Offline Carlos E. Martinez

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Re: Edirol R-09 input woes
« Reply #98 on: December 18, 2006, 04:17:20 PM »
Obviously there are far better connectors than we are finding on mini-recorders being sold for low cost these days.

Obviously the errors made with R-09 have been mostly corrected by Edirol/Roland with fixes to now be not much worse than normally experienced with mini-jack type inputs.  

The point I see being missed here is there are easy, practical ways of minimizing the stresses placed on these jacks so they work for the life of the product without resorting to cumbersome redesign efforts to make these decks into something they are not.  

Short of gluing the connector to the recorder or eliminating it all together by soldering a cable directly to the pcb, the fact is that the 1/8" jack was not designed for the tasks they are putting to.

What made my living for the last 16 years was selecting, renting and sometime modifying audio equipment to be used on location in film & video. That was also based on my previous 15 years experience as a film location recordist. So I think I gathered some practical knowledge on what works, does not work at all or can be improved.

My first contact with the 1/8" jack in semi-pro equipment was on the Sony Wm6C semi-pro cassette recorder, and then in the D7/D8 DAT portables. By then I knew the only way to walk around the "weak link" problem was replacing it (a difficult option) or using short cable adapters. If locking 1/8" connectors had been widely available back then, in 1990, I would have certainly replaced them.

The matter on what these units are or not is a debatable question. DV video was not meant to become what it became, now followed by HDV. If the capabilities allow it, why not stretch as much as you can what you can do?       

Quote
Sure, some of you are capable of doing extensive modifications to the deck, and then to all the equipment you connect up using specialized connectors, but this is not a solution for many of us concerned with reliable recording using miniaturized equipment.

The other end is easier to solve, or is already solved, mostly using XLRs. We can concentrate on solving the decks problems.

Quote
As an equipment designer, the best tact is produce low stress interfaces using the same type of connectors as supplied with these recorders, and not demand modification be done on the decks themselves.  This has worked well in the past, and will continue to provide adequate solution for needed reliability for connecting gear to mini-decks with 3.5 mm jacks.

When I designed my preamp, some years ago, to be used with DV cameras, portable DATs and MD recorders, one of the problems I wanted to solve was the 1/8" jacks the used. The linking cable was to remain permanently connected, very much like what the Beachtek did.

Quote
Velcro attached cord securing is a +7 year old tip on my site suggested for minidisc decks using small molded right-angle plugs with flexible cord, and will work with the R-09 with if securing the back cover seams with tape as illustrated in the review atwww.sonicstudios.com/r-09revw.htm 

Some ideas seem to work in different contexts. In 1987, Super-8 modified Sony WM6C recorders provided velcro strips on their commercial decks, both for mic and headphone cable adaptors (all 1/8" on the original Sony recorder), so you could secure the cables to the shoulder belt. 

Quote
Using straight plugs still leaves open good chance of jack-damaging stress from an accidental bump on the plug's long length dimension.

L-shaped connectors are second best (and a good idea) to locking 1/8" types.

Offline sec1968

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Re: Edirol R-09 input woes
« Reply #99 on: January 10, 2007, 10:36:36 AM »
I took my unit to a Roland approved repair place close to where I work to finally have the input jack fixed. After reading all the posts in this thread I told the repair guy it was most likely the solder, and after going to the place again yesterday, he showed me that it indeed was.

Whether or not this jack is either re-soldered and/or exopyed in place, does it need to have a solid connection to the board in order for both the right & left levels to be even? The repair guy didn't have anything to try & test levels, and my stealth mics didn't do anything to help with that test. And he really didn't get it set solidly by re-soldering it either.

And i'm thinking that how it was damaged, Roland may not take it back anyway.

Suggestions?

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Offline Carlos E. Martinez

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Re: Edirol R-09 input woes
« Reply #100 on: January 10, 2007, 10:57:31 AM »
Whether or not this jack is either re-soldered and/or exopyed in place, does it need to have a solid connection to the board in order for both the right & left levels to be even? The repair guy didn't have anything to try & test levels, and my stealth mics didn't do anything to help with that test. And he really didn't get it set solidly by re-soldering it either.

And i'm thinking that how it was damaged, Roland may not take it back anyway.

The connector only has two options: soldered and unsoldered. If it's unsoldered it will be mute or noisy in most situations.

If it's soldered there shouldn't be any level difference.

A drop of any glue or epoxy should be great to fix the jack to the board. Certainly recommended.

My concern with 1/8" are the springs inside the jack, which IMO lose contact after repeated plug/unplug.

If that ever happens, replace the 1/8" jacks with short cables and 1/4" jacks. They have better spring force. 

Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: Edirol R-09 input woes
« Reply #101 on: January 10, 2007, 09:40:04 PM »
what would happen if instead of beefing up the jack, you removed it and soldered some nice wire to it.  secured it w/a gromet or something and then had a 1' lead w/a female end of choice?
possible ?
i'm going to take mine apart and look (is that smoke I smell?)

Offline Carlos E. Martinez

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Re: Edirol R-09 input woes
« Reply #102 on: January 11, 2007, 06:12:39 AM »
Wait a minute. If you are not having any problem with the R-09, or if it can be solved by a better connector (angled?), I don't think anyone should invalidate their warranty by removing anything.

What I say is if anyone is noticing any problems now on the input, they might be related (or not) to the input jack. So that should be the first place to look.

Replacing the jack by a different type or cable should be the ultimate mod, only to be taken on if everything else fails. Once again: until the warranty expires. Then you could take more radical decisions.

Until then, my less compromising proposal would be: get a cable adapter, using a tight fitting 1/8" in one end and a locking connector of some kind at the other. First choice should be XLR, second mini-XLR, third 1/4" jack (it's not locking, but its springs grip as if it did). Plug that cable and leave it there.

 

Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: Edirol R-09 input woes
« Reply #103 on: January 11, 2007, 07:03:45 AM »
But Carlos....radical decisions w/gear are what i'm all about!
:)


Offline Carlos E. Martinez

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Re: Edirol R-09 input woes
« Reply #104 on: January 11, 2007, 07:14:48 AM »
But Carlos....radical decisions w/gear are what i'm all about!
:)

That's the spirit!...  >:D   

Then I think we should try to find out about available thread-compatible 1/8" pcb jacks, because there are ready-made threading plugs around. 

 

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