Topic: ISO: SS recorder as reliable as my M1

[Massive Dynamic]

Maybe I should be posting in the Ask the Tapers forum, but this seems the logical place. Like most DAT users, I'm contemplating the switch to a solid state/HDD recorder. I've had my M1 for over 5 years and I have never lost a single note of music, unless user error was involved. The numerous threads in this forum recounting loss of parts of shows or entire recordings using the new SS/HDD recorders don't inspire confidence.

My intended use is also in less-than-ideal conditions: annual 5-day camping festival, no access to A/C current, and temperatures/humidity often 90+.  This year, I put 27+ hours of music to DAT, and powered everything with alkaline batts in sleds. As long as I have tape and batteries, I can bring home everything.

To pull off the same feat with a SS/HDD recorder, I see a few hurdles. For power, I believe most units can probably be run with an external sled, so that's covered. Storage of recordings, however, depends on the type of recorder. An Edirol R4 w/40GB HDD might do the trick (depending on bit-depth, sample rate), but is at the upper end of my budget and might need additional modding of the preamps. CF/SD recorders are generally cheaper, but since I don't have a laptop to offload files, a USB OTG drive is another added expense, along with CF media. Maybe a PDA setup would work? I also use a Mac, in case that complicates any formatting/file transfers. For the curious, I have an LSD2 and the festival is mostly rock.

Any SS recordists care to point me in the general direction of a recorder you'd recommend? Or should I stick with my M1 until it dies?

[BC]

If reliability is the major concern, don't get the Microtracker. Mine will still sometimes freeze when writing the 1st file after power up. I usually run a test file beforehand so I can reboot the thing in case it happens, but I am not happy with this behavior, so far it has only happened at open taping shows but I don't want to deal with rebooting if I am stealthing. To be honest besides that bug it has always worked ok when I had correct media in it, but for some reason I still do not feel that confident with it.

I also remember hearing about people having problems with their FR2's stopping a while ago.

PDA's seem too gimmicky to me in this age of dedicated recorders, YMMV.

[Brian Skalinder]

Like most DAT users, I'm contemplating the switch to a solid state/HDD recorder.
< snip >
For the curious, I have an LSD2 and the festival is mostly rock.

Any SS recordists care to point me in the general direction of a recorder you'd recommend? Or should I stick with my M1 until it dies?

Do you currently use the M1, and intend to use the new SS/HD recorder, as a digital bit-bucket or also as pre/ADC?  What other gear are you running / do you plan to run between your LSD2 and M1 / HD/SS recorder?

[lbgspam]

I just asked a related question to the forum. Also, in this form  scroll down as there are two related threads on selecting a flash recorder.  Here is the thread I started.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=70996.0

Long story short, get the Edirol R-09 ($340 delivered) with the Transcend 4gb SD card from Newegg (~$59).  Dump the data from the 4gb card every night. 

16bit recording will get 6hrs on the 4gb card, 24BIT will get 4hrs on the 4gb card.  Get multiple 4gb cards if you think you won't have time to dump the data every night or between sets (this way one card will be recording while the other is dumping it's data to either your laptop or get one of the portable hard drive devices that work with flash memory cards made for travelers without laptops). 

[lbgspam]

Also, WOW, 5 days without power. R-09 takes 2 AA batteries, so bring enough batteries. Or, think about building a lead-acid battery pack (I built one back in the day for my D7, it's pretty easy actually to do and will give you MUCH more power).

[JasonSobel]

if you are OK with 16 bit at thos long festivals, then I think a CF recorder would be fine.  with a 8 gig card, you can get ~12 hours at 16/44.1 or 16/48.  and with the prices of 8 gig CF cards now at around $150 (and still dropping), I think its reasonable to get 2 or 3 cards, if needed.  of course, a real advantage of the solid state recorders is the ability to record at 24 bit.  if you want to record at 24 bit for very long extended periods, a hard-drive based setup is probably your best bet.

[Massive Dynamic]

Do you currently use the M1, and intend to use the new SS/HD recorder, as a digital bit-bucket or also as pre/ADC?  What other gear are you running / do you plan to run between your LSD2 and M1 / HD/SS recorder?

I'm just running PS-2 > transformers right now, so the pre/ADC of the unit is a consideration.

16bit recording will get 6hrs on the 4gb card, 24BIT will get 4hrs on the 4gb card.  Get multiple 4gb cards...

If prices drop enough, this may be an option. 16 bit is likely all I would use. 24 bit just makes all the extraneous noise that much more noticeable.

Also, WOW, 5 days without power. R-09 takes 2 AA batteries, so bring enough batteries. Or, think about building a lead-acid battery pack (I built one back in the day for my D7, it's pretty easy actually to do and will give you MUCH more power).

I've been using alkaline D cell packs with much success. Perhaps as heavy as SLA, but I just don't have the luxury of recharging.

[Brian Skalinder]

I've had my M1 for over 5 years and I have never lost a single note of music, unless user error was involved.

IMO, if you've gone 5 years without a single hitch, you're just plain lucky - even DATs had occasionaly reliability issues, just as SS recorders do today.  It's gonna happen eventually, whether with the M1 or a new recorder.

An Edirol R4 w/40GB HDD might do the trick (depending on bit-depth, sample rate), but is at the upper end of my budget and might need additional modding of the preamps.

I have two of my R-4 channels Oade transparent-modded, and they do sound better, but the R-4 sounds darn good stock.  IMO, the R-4 sounds considerably better than PS-2 > line transformers > M1, and does not "need" preamp upgrades.

I'm just running PS-2 > transformers right now, so the pre/ADC of the unit is a consideration.

In that case, two recommendations:  R-09 or HD-P2.  The R-09 will prove significantly less expensive and easier to power in the field, while the HD-P2, though costing more, will enable greater flexibility for future gear upgrades given it's ability to accept digital inputs.  If your budget is in the neighborhood of a new R-4, then you could pick up the R-09, a couple media cards, and an OTG drive with a good chunk of change to spare.

If you require 4-channels, then I'd change my recommendation to the R-4, but it sounds like that's not a requirement.

[dallman]

If reliability is the major concern, don't get the Microtracker. Mine will still sometimes freeze when writing the 1st file after power up. I usually run a test file beforehand so I can reboot the thing in case it happens, but I am not happy with this behavior, so far it has only happened at open taping shows but I don't want to deal with rebooting if I am stealthing. To be honest besides that bug it has always worked ok when I had correct media in it, but for some reason I still do not feel that confident with it.

I also remember hearing about people having problems with their FR2's stopping a while ago.

PDA's seem too gimmicky to me in this age of dedicated recorders, YMMV.

That seems very unusual, and if you are using the newest firmware the problem would probably be the CF card you are using. I have never seen my my MT lock up on a file and that would be going back quite a few firmware upgrades, but without a doubt, the newest firmware is the only way to go.

It seems that the MT likes the older slower CF cards. I use a Seagate 5gb microdrive and a Kingston 2gb CF card. Both would be termed slow speed compared to the newer releases, and both work great. I also have a Transcend 4gb, that is much faster, and the MT does not like it. I use that in my camera. I hope this helps, because with the MT as it stands today, you should not have to worry about freeze ups.

Also I've seen some joking about the spinning hourglass that the latest firmware added, but I've got to tell you that when I am deleting, and even sometimes saving. It takes a long time, and without that spinning hourglass, I would probably think I was frozen.

I have not done a "hard boot" in a long time ...good luck!

[rodeen]

That seems very unusual, and if you are using the newest firmware the problem would probably be the CF card you are using. I have never seen my my MT lock up on a file and that would be going back quite a few firmware upgrades, but without a doubt, the newest firmware is the only way to go.

I'd toss that thing in the river..   

Actually I can honestly say that my MT has performed every bit as well as my M1.  And I am exceedingly happy with both units.
I just recently sold my M1 because I never used it and was going exclusively with the MT.  I was that confident in it.  I don't
think the preamp in it is great but I mostly use it as a bit bucket.  All that said, the MT is moving to stealth use only and my HD-P2
is schedule to arrive sometime today.  I'd say if you can afford it and aren't looking to stealth, the P2 sounds I think is much more of
a professional grade piece of equipment.  For now I plan on keeping both devices.

[BC]

If reliability is the major concern, don't get the Microtracker. Mine will still sometimes freeze when writing the 1st file after power up. I usually run a test file beforehand so I can reboot the thing in case it happens, but I am not happy with this behavior, so far it has only happened at open taping shows but I don't want to deal with rebooting if I am stealthing. To be honest besides that bug it has always worked ok when I had correct media in it, but for some reason I still do not feel that confident with it.

I also remember hearing about people having problems with their FR2's stopping a while ago.

PDA's seem too gimmicky to me in this age of dedicated recorders, YMMV.

That seems very unusual, and if you are using the newest firmware the problem would probably be the CF card you are using. I have never seen my my MT lock up on a file and that would be going back quite a few firmware upgrades, but without a doubt, the newest firmware is the only way to go.

It seems that the MT likes the older slower CF cards. I use a Seagate 5gb microdrive and a Kingston 2gb CF card. Both would be termed slow speed compared to the newer releases, and both work great. I also have a Transcend 4gb, that is much faster, and the MT does not like it. I use that in my camera. I hope this helps, because with the MT as it stands today, you should not have to worry about freeze ups.

Also I've seen some joking about the spinning hourglass that the latest firmware added, but I've got to tell you that when I am deleting, and even sometimes saving. It takes a long time, and without that spinning hourglass, I would probably think I was frozen.

I have not done a "hard boot" in a long time ...good luck!

Thanx for thr input dall-
I will throw on the newest firmware today, been running a beta version from a couple months ago (that MP3 fix version), hopefully the glitch won't happen again.
Peace,
Ben

[Massive Dynamic]

Thanks, a round of Ts to all. Perhaps I have just been extremely fortunate that I haven't had any problems with my DAT. And when I think of reliable, the MicroTracker, not so much. I guess my greatest fear is being at the fest, and running out of room on the flash cards I had, or having a problem trying to re-use cards after offloading files.

The R4 probably is more machine than I need, the R09 is getting good reviews, and the HDP2 does seem to be the most reliable, so far. The Oade-modded Marantz units are tempting, and I'm curious about the Fostex FR2 LE. Guess I'lll keep watching the threads in this forum.

[Mike R.]

If 16 bits is sufficient, I've been very happy with a Marantz 660.  There has been a lot of discussion here about which flash cards, and I have only used SanDisk cards up to 1GB, but since I got my first stock 660 in March '05, I haven't had any problems that weren't pilot error.  (not too many of those either!)

I do recommend one of the Oade mods.  The stock preamp on my very early production unit wasn't very good, but that is now an Oade Basic Mod unit, and it's good.

[guysonic]

Maybe I should be posting in the Ask the Tapers forum, but this seems the logical place. Like most DAT users, I'm contemplating the switch to a solid state/HDD recorder. I've had my M1 for over 5 years and I have never lost a single note of music, unless user error was involved. The numerous threads in this forum recounting loss of parts of shows or entire recordings using the new SS/HDD recorders don't inspire confidence.

My intended use is also in less-than-ideal conditions: annual 5-day camping festival, no access to A/C current, and temperatures/humidity often 90+.  This year, I put 27+ hours of music to DAT, and powered everything with alkaline batts in sleds. As long as I have tape and batteries, I can bring home everything.

To pull off the same feat with a SS/HDD recorder, I see a few hurdles. For power, I believe most units can probably be run with an external sled, so that's covered. Storage of recordings, however, depends on the type of recorder. An Edirol R4 w/40GB HDD might do the trick (depending on bit-depth, sample rate), but is at the upper end of my budget and might need additional modding of the preamps. CF/SD recorders are generally cheaper, but since I don't have a laptop to offload files, a USB OTG drive is another added expense, along with CF media. Maybe a PDA setup would work? I also use a Mac, in case that complicates any formatting/file transfers. For the curious, I have an LSD2 and the festival is mostly rock.

Any SS recordists care to point me in the general direction of a recorder you'd recommend? Or should I stick with my M1 until it dies?

I'd suggest keeping the M1 at least for festival use as having archivable DAT tapes is far more practical that dealing with multiple flash cards that LATER can easily be transfered, but NOT with many days of festival recording with no means of AC powering transfering devices.  Yes, OTG or flash card reading portable hard drive is an option to off load flash, but ONLY as long as the OTG device does NOT have internal non-exchangeable internal batteries for places like festivals with no AC power. 

Using flash recorders in remote places with no means of recharging is discussed on thread: http://taperssection.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=dc5cb19c3eae03a2a98a47d2a8b6b290;topic=65298.msg940125#msg940125

[Nick's Picks]

spend $150 on an HPIriver h120 for festivals.
then drop the coin on the R9, which kicks ass.