Topic: Korg MR-1 and MR-1000 - News DSD Recorders announced at AES

[MattH]

So I am assuming the MR-1 can't take the V3 analog out either?

According to the manual, the MR-1000 takes a max level of -16dBu for XLR, +16dBu for TRS and +6dBV for TS(unbalanced). The MR-1 takes max level of Line +6dBu and Mic -27dBV

For concert PA taping, it looks like phantom power boxes will be needed to run condenser mics on both units and you must run line in to avoid attenuators. Oh well.

Looks good for running a separate preamp. I think most folks turn the V3 gain down anyway when running it as a preamp only.

[Colin Liston]

Okay, so I want to run the V3 digi out > JB3/MT AND analog out to the MR-1.  Will this be possible? 

I'll need to crank the gain if running preamp and AD, so I am guessing this might not work out like I had hoped.

I've got one on order and now I'm wondering if I should cancel and wait...

[MattH]

Okay, so I want to run the V3 digi out > JB3/MT AND analog out to the MR-1.  Will this be possible? 

I'll need to crank the gain if running preamp and AD, so I am guessing this might not work out like I had hoped.

I've got one on order and now I'm wondering if I should cancel and wait...

That will be a problem with most any recorder. On the other hand, probably no need to use the V3 digi out if you are going DSD.

[newblue]

So I am assuming the MR-1 can't take the V3 analog out either?

Don't know, I haven't checked out the specs yet.  I just realized though, that max level of 31mv on the XLR inputs is really low, unless I'm screwing something up in my calculations.

My mics, and a lot of others have sensitivities of 14.5mV/Pascal, which is a sound level of 94db.  For each 6db increase in sound pressure, you'll double that as a mic signal.  So 100db SPL is 29mv signal coming from the mic, 106db is 58mv, 112db SPL is 116mv signal level. 

You'll easily get 112db SPLs at a concert, so I guess this means you won't be able to use this recorder without having a -20db mic pad engaged?

were you refering to this for the max level for the xlr connectors?    XLR-3-31 type

Don't alot of machines use this type connector?

[Colin Liston]

Okay, so I want to run the V3 digi out > JB3/MT AND analog out to the MR-1.  Will this be possible? 

I'll need to crank the gain if running preamp and AD, so I am guessing this might not work out like I had hoped.

I've got one on order and now I'm wondering if I should cancel and wait...

That will be a problem with most any recorder. On the other hand, probably no need to use the V3 digi out if you are going DSD.

The digi out would be my back up, until I get this new fangled DSD working.

[Todd R]

So I am assuming the MR-1 can't take the V3 analog out either?

Don't know, I haven't checked out the specs yet.  I just realized though, that max level of 31mv on the XLR inputs is really low, unless I'm screwing something up in my calculations.

My mics, and a lot of others have sensitivities of 14.5mV/Pascal, which is a sound level of 94db.  For each 6db increase in sound pressure, you'll double that as a mic signal.  So 100db SPL is 29mv signal coming from the mic, 106db is 58mv, 112db SPL is 116mv signal level. 

You'll easily get 112db SPLs at a concert, so I guess this means you won't be able to use this recorder without having a -20db mic pad engaged?

were you refering to this for the max level for the xlr connectors?    XLR-3-31 type

Don't alot of machines use this type connector?

I was going off of Matt's post, but I wasn't picking up on the specs being listed for nominal.  Looking at the manual for max input specs things look better.  -16dbu max on the XLRs, +16dbu max on the TRS, +6dbV max unbalanced on the TRS.

This works out to 124mv max on the XLRs, 4.9V on the TRS, and 2V unbalanced on the TRS (8dbu).

So things look pretty good on the TRS inputs for the MR-1000, but still not so great on the XLR inputs.  I still wouldn't risk running mics into the MR-1000's XLR inputs without having the -10db mic attenuation engaged on the mic.

Oh, and this is just the max level for the XLR inputs on the MR-1000, it is not the max level XLR connectors can take in general.

[Todd R]

Okay, so I want to run the V3 digi out > JB3/MT AND analog out to the MR-1.  Will this be possible? 

I'll need to crank the gain if running preamp and AD, so I am guessing this might not work out like I had hoped.

I've got one on order and now I'm wondering if I should cancel and wait...

That will be a problem with most any recorder. On the other hand, probably no need to use the V3 digi out if you are going DSD.

The AD2k+ can take the full output level of the V3, I think taking unbalanced inputs the R-09 comes fairly close.  Anyway, looks like the MR-1 can accept +6dbV on its line input, which is unbalanced.  This works out to +8dbu.  The V3 at 0dbFS (running full tilt), puts out 19dbu (unbalanced).  So you'd need to either attenuate the V3 analog outputs by 11-12dbu to feed the MR-1, or you'd need to run the V3 at ~-12dbFS max when running it with a digital out. 

BTW, I'm guessing you might want to be running the V3 digital out not for the MR-1, but to use the V3 as a pre for the MR-1, while at the same time running the V3 digital out to a pcm recorder (eg, MT) for backup.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

So the v3 gain range is +10 to +70 dB.  722 in mic mode is 10-55dB (can take +10dBu max). 722 in line mode is -6 to 18dB (can take +26dBu max). Can anyone equate the MR-1000 gain in those terms?

Loudest show I've recorded with schoeps > 722 was dino jr and I ran 14dB of gain. I think that was running pretty hot. Had I wanted to peak at -12, I'd probably would have needed about 10dB less.


Edit:   Kinda wondering about situations where you start in mic mode but then find you have too much gain and need to switch to line mode and change cables.... I don't understand the gain structure well enough to know at what levels that will occur.

Just have to add.. What IDIOT design team and mgmt at Korg decided that pro level signals weren't needed on the big MR-1000?  That isn't a minor detail.  If they screwed something that basic up, what else have they blown?

[Todd R]

Just have to add.. What IDIOT design team and mgmt at Korg decided that pro level signals weren't needed on the big MR-1000?  That isn't a minor detail.  If they screwed something that basic up, what else have they blown?

Well, nominal line level for pro gear is +4dbu (and nominal consumer line level is -10dbV).  So in that regard, the max +16dbu input isn't too bad, though it would be nice if it could take 20-26dbu.

I can't believe how low the max mic level input is though.  That's pretty pathetic you can't use the mic inputs without using engaging the mic attenuator circuit on your mics (assuming they have them -- forget using Neumann km184s directly into the MR-1000).

[SClassical]

Okay, so I want to run the V3 digi out > JB3/MT AND analog out to the MR-1.  Will this be possible? 

I'll need to crank the gain if running preamp and AD, so I am guessing this might not work out like I had hoped.

I've got one on order and now I'm wondering if I should cancel and wait...

You'll be fine...I tried it out last night.

[newblue]

Just have to add.. What IDIOT design team and mgmt at Korg decided that pro level signals weren't needed on the big MR-1000?  That isn't a minor detail.  If they screwed something that basic up, what else have they blown?

Well, nominal line level for pro gear is +4dbu (and nominal consumer line level is -10dbV).  So in that regard, the max +16dbu input isn't too bad, though it would be nice if it could take 20-26dbu.

I can't believe how low the max mic level input is though.  That's pretty pathetic you can't use the mic inputs without using engaging the mic attenuator circuit on your mics (assuming they have them -- forget using Neumann km184s directly into the MR-1000).

If this is actually the case, this would be quite the dissapointment.  I was hoping to try just that 184>MR1000 but 184/170 > V2 > MR1000 should work out it seems.  I have emailed tech support to try to get an answer on what the exact gain specs are for the XLR v TRS connectors at the 'high' and 'low' gain settings.  The way the manual reads, it doesn't differentiate between the high and low set switch.  Also asked about the mic in.  I'll post what they have to say.

The guy I've been talking to over at KORG's tech support has already sent me a DC plug + cable end from a bad adapter Free Of Charge so I can make a SLA power solution for the MR-1000.  That's pretty nice if you ask me.  He also told me that KORG is working on a portable power solution for the MR1 and the MR1000.

[mandoman]

Dang, all this mic pre talking is making me nervous. I'm coming from a MT and I don't want
to go through more "can't handle hot signals hell that is the MT". I just decided mr-1000 over
the mr-1 and to get one as soon as they are available (from what I hear, any day now).
Looks like now I'll have to wait. 

However, I don't think anyone should get their hopes up on the mic pre's - it IS korg we're
talking here afterall. What I hope to hear is, 'pleasantly surprised'.

What we are all expecting is the A>D to kick ass. If the mic pres are decent (hopefully better),
than hopefully we'll be in good shape for the next 'standard' all in one box. If not, looks like
r4, fr2le or 671 for me...

In the meantime, I'm ordering an LSD2 and Presonus Firebox to tide my G.A.S. over until we
get some solid reviews on these units.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

If this is actually the case, this would be quite the dissapointment.  I was hoping to try just that 184>MR1000 but 184/170 > V2 > MR1000 should work out it seems.

I would think adding the v2 will only make things worse.. It adds a min of 10 dB of gain on top of what is already coming from the mics.. And actually, I think it adds 20 and the trim pot down at 0 attenuates 10 of that 20.  Maybe you could flip some internal jumpers in the v2 to attenuate but....

[Todd R]

If this is actually the case, this would be quite the dissapointment.  I was hoping to try just that 184>MR1000 but 184/170 > V2 > MR1000 should work out it seems.

I would think adding the v2 will only make things worse.. It adds a min of 10 dB of gain on top of what is already coming from the mics.. And actually, I think it adds 20 and the trim pot down at 0 attenuates 10 of that 20.  Maybe you could flip some internal jumpers in the v2 to attenuate but....

I'm not following.  The line input isn't too bad at all, it's the max mic input levels that are really constraining.  By using the V2, you can go line-in to the MR-1000 which will be able to accept +16dbu.  With mic-in, esp with km184s with no mic attenuator circuit, you'd have to use some sort of attenuator cable -- not a good option when you're running phantom power.

[Todd R]

If this is actually the case, this would be quite the dissapointment.  I was hoping to try just that 184>MR1000 but 184/170 > V2 > MR1000 should work out it seems.

I would think adding the v2 will only make things worse.. It adds a min of 10 dB of gain on top of what is already coming from the mics.. And actually, I think it adds 20 and the trim pot down at 0 attenuates 10 of that 20.  Maybe you could flip some internal jumpers in the v2 to attenuate but....

Maybe working through the numbers helps:

If the km184 has a sensitivity of 15mv/Pa (I think it does), then it will produce a signal level of 240mV when it is recording in an environment that has a max SPL of 118db (a little on the high side, but about correct, typical shows easily hit 112db).

This 240mV corresponds to ~-10dbu -- so it overloads the max mic input level of -16dbu.  Fed into a V2 with a gain of 20db, the 240mV mic signal level gets amplified to +10dbu.  Which is 6dbu less than the max line in of +16dbu.