Topic: Korg MR-1 and MR-1000 - News DSD Recorders announced at AES

[it-goes-to-eleven]

location and method is still most of the equation.

Guess I should sell my MGs and Schoeps and start using the C4's again.

[Brian Skalinder]

location and method is still most of the equation.

Of course.  But what I think Nick and others are suggesting is that all else equal, higher resolution would better illustrate the sonic differences of the upstream gear, not make the gear sound more alike.  That's my story and I'm sticking to it (until I actually make some DSD recordings and hear for myself).

[manamana]

so to do this ('puter playback) right, wont we need to see dsd capable cards (pci, etc)..?

a ways away, but 'puter dsd playback would be killer. foobar2k baby!!!! if any app (and programmer) can get it right it will be pp (the d00d that wrote fb2k)

I'm reasonably certain the included software will play back the DFF files without any special card.

I'm reasonably certain that while this may be technically true, it won't actually be the un-converted DSD you hear.

Both MR recorders come with Korg’s innovative and powerful AudioGate™ software for Mac® and PC. AudioGate can convert 1-bit recordings into WAV and AIFF formats at various bit-rates (and vice versa) and offers real-time conversion and playback of 1-bit files.

so I'm thinking the software converts to pcm on the fly, then sends the pcm to your pcm-based soundcard. bummer.

since I'm home with a sinus infection on a saturday night, I did some digging. apparently at one time there were rumors of a DSD lynx card that would be supported by the sequoia platform. but I can't find anything recent. might be a couple years before we have a DSD-native computer playback platform

[H₂O]

Just curious - I noted in the KORG white papers claim that most 24bit AD chips actually convert the signal to a 1bit digital signal (using a Delta Sigma conversion) before actually converting this to 24bit PCM.  So I figured I'dlook up  the AD's in the V3 and 722 to see if they fit this pattern.

It does look like that both the AD in the 722/744 (CS5361) and V3 (PCM1804) do use a Delta Sigma stage and pass a serial stream to be filtered, etc into 24-bits. 

TI PCM1804 - http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/pcm1804.html
CS5361 - http://crystal.com/en/pubs/proDatasheet/CS5361_F2.pdf


Note:
- the TI chip used in the V3 actually has the capibility to send out DSD signal.
- The CS5361 says it is multibit Delta Sigma - is this multibit mean 2 bits (1 per channel) or is there delta sigma conversion architectures that support multibit?

Would not the DSD signal be a purer (or more raw - less processed) form of this digitally representation (i.e. the original Delta Sigma converted Digital Stream) vs a filtered version of this stream into 24bit as KORG claims? Or is the KORG claim way off here?

I don't know enough about this stuff, but thought I'd bring it up as KORG makes a huge deal about this in their white paper and I want to see if any one else thinks there is any reason to look into this claim further.

[RebelRebel]

Pyramix, Soundblade, Sadie, and Sonic Studios are all computer DAWs that have DSD Cards..

so to do this ('puter playback) right, wont we need to see dsd capable cards (pci, etc)..?

a ways away, but 'puter dsd playback would be killer. foobar2k baby!!!! if any app (and programmer) can get it right it will be pp (the d00d that wrote fb2k)

I'm reasonably certain the included software will play back the DFF files without any special card.

I'm reasonably certain that while this may be technically true, it won't actually be the un-converted DSD you hear.

Both MR recorders come with Korg’s innovative and powerful AudioGate™ software for Mac® and PC. AudioGate can convert 1-bit recordings into WAV and AIFF formats at various bit-rates (and vice versa) and offers real-time conversion and playback of 1-bit files.

so I'm thinking the software converts to pcm on the fly, then sends the pcm to your pcm-based soundcard. bummer.

since I'm home with a sinus infection on a saturday night, I did some digging. apparently at one time there were rumors of a DSD lynx card that would be supported by the sequoia platform. but I can't find anything recent. might be a couple years before we have a DSD-native computer playback platform

[manamana]

Apologies, but I think you knew what I meant.

=A Prosumer, semi-affordable, maybe-hopefully not tied to one particular piece of software playback platform

[RebelRebel]

Apologies, but I think you knew what I meant.

=A Prosumer, semi-affordable, maybe-hopefully not tied to one particualr piece of software playback platform

you mentioned Sequoia and Lynx in that statement..those are neither pro sumer nor affordable...

[manamana]

lynx audio cards top out at around $1k. a sequoia - lynx platform would still be pretty pricey, but at least would be a step down from the $5K+ options from the others you mentioned (pyramix, sadie...)

I simply meant to imply that that would be heading in the right direction, and in a couple years we might be there. Apologies if that was not clear.

[RebelRebel]

lynx audio cards top out at around $1k. a sequoia - lynx platform would still be pretty pricey, but at least would be a step down from the $5K+ options from the others you mentioned (pyramix, sadie...)

I simply meant to imply that that would be heading in the right direction, and in a couple years we might be there. Apologies if that was not clear.

the Lynx AES 16, Aurora, and others are way more than 1K..and Sequoia is about 3k (I have the AES 16, Sequoia, and Samplitude v9)
..truth of the matter is, any software that handles DSD is going to be expensive..it is complex and pricey to implement. youll see recorders all over, but editing and software playback..I dont think so.

[manamana]

I really don't want to nitpick, and I agree with you for the most part. But... the AES 16 can be easily had for well under $1k, and the aurora isn't a computer interface, it's an AD/DA (albeit one with some amount of optional computer-controlled functionality).

I can't predict the future, but I'm certainly keeping my fingers crossed for a better range of cards and software. At the very least it seems there is a market for them.

[newblue]

/joining thread

Great discussion...

not to reitterate all the different thoughts and concerns that have been expressed regarding viability and sonic quality (although, this is prolly sour grapes for some that have already invested in an expensive 24bit recorder), I think that as far as an archival medium, regardless of native playback options currently, DSD is a great step in the right direction digitally.  Who's to say where the 'real' future of digital lies, 32bit, 64bit, 1bit HF; this is the marketing slant that Korg has taken with their statment of future-proof archival format; preservation and conversion to future formats makes HD DSD (1bit/5.6Mhz) awesome.  Also the flexibility of being able to record DSD or 24bit PCM gives this unit (MR1000) an edge and allows those who have not made the switch to 24bit able to do so at a reasonable cost.  Futhermore, with a DSD recorder on the market this, depending on it's success, will open the door for more development of products in this direction.  I do find it funny that eventhough this allows for recording and archival in DSD, for real distribution the files have to be converted to PCM.

I'm skeptical that DSD is the perfect solution for the deficiencies of PCM but nothing is perfect and we can't have our cake and eat it too, but maybe we can have our cake and eat it later.


This link seems to explain the process best for me and the advantages of DSD.  But trust your ears!

http://www.korg.com/mr/Future_Proof_Recording_Explained.pdf

[RebelRebel]

for real distribution, you could send the DSD RAW files to an SACD mastering house...but that is expensive, as it always will be..

/joining thread

Great discussion...

not to reitterate all the different thoughts and concerns that have been expressed regarding viability and sonic quality (although, this is prolly sour grapes for some that have already invested in an expensive 24bit recorder), I think that as far as an archival medium, regardless of native playback options currently, DSD is a great step in the right direction digitally.  Who's to say where the 'real' future of digital lies, 32bit, 64bit, 1bit HF; this is the marketing slant that Korg has taken with their statment of future-proof archival format; preservation and conversion to future formats makes HD DSD (1bit/5.6Mhz) awesome.  Also the flexibility of being able to record DSD or 24bit PCM gives this unit (MR1000) an edge and allows those who have not made the switch to 24bit able to do so at a reasonable cost.  Futhermore, with a DSD recorder on the market this, depending on it's success, will open the door for more development of products in this direction.  I do find it funny that eventhough this allows for recording and archival in DSD, for real distribution the files have to be converted to PCM.

I'm skeptical that DSD is the perfect solution for the deficiencies of PCM but nothing is perfect and we can't have our cake and eat it too, but maybe we can have our cake and eat it later.


This link seems to explain the process best for me and the advantages of DSD.  But trust your ears!

http://www.korg.com/mr/Future_Proof_Recording_Explained.pdf

[newblue]

Come on.  Look who you are talking to here.   

I don't think that a 'mastering house' is a 'real' solution.  Maybe I should have made myself more clear.

The closest thing out there would be the TASCAM DVRA-HD.  If you could copy the DSDIFF files to the harddrive somehow and then transfer them to disc for playback then that would be a 'real' solution.  I have tried to find out if the USB interface with the DVRA-HD can be used bi-directionally, and haven't had much luck.  Those things are twice as much as what the MR-1000 would be, and just to play back the DSD files.  I imagine that things will be lop-sided with DSD for a while until it gets rolling.  Until then I don't mind to jump on board with the MR-1000 for obvious reasons.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

One word: betamax.

[newblue]

yea, but it's like haveing a recorder that does both Beta and VHS.  So what's to worry about?

Like someone else said, what do the opamps sound like?  I have read that the MR1000 has a Burr-Brown 4202 ADC and CS4398 DAC, supposedly very good.  It also has the flexibility to run an individual mic pre instead of the on-board mic pre.