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Offline gratefulphish

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Technical Mic Questions
« on: February 06, 2007, 10:06:43 PM »
I am fortunate enough to have Neumann TLM 170s, which have five adjustable polar patterns: omni, subcard, card, hyper and figure 8.  In looking at the various polar pattern pickup diagrams, and from my own practical experimentation, I have several questions.

1.  Why do all hypercard mics have that rear lobe pickup pattern?   This seems counterintuitive, as you are trying to narrow the pickup pattern in front of the mic, which is accomplished, at the cost of picking up unnecessary/unwanted sound from the rear, which otherwise is only picked up by the figure 8 pattern.

2.  What would happen if you used something like this  http://cgi.ebay.com/SE-ELECTRONICS-Reflexion-Filter-Mic-Ambience-Reflector_W0QQitemZ250078926416QQihZ015QQcategoryZ41466QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem , or something smaller and homemade, to try to block out some of that rear lobe and pickup.  Would it be better to make it convex, rather than concave, in order to try to avoid reflection or echoing back of the sound coming from the front, although the manufacturers of this particular device seem to have gone to great lengths to assure sound absorption and dispersion?  What if it were as simple as a piece of heavy felt or fabric several inches behind the mic?

3.  From the various diagrams, the figure 8 pattern actually has the narrowest front (and matching rear) lobe. I have M/S capability in my deck and preamp, so what would happen if I ran two mics in figure 8, a la Blumlein, and then completely panned away the rear lobes?  Can this be done, and has anyone tried it?  Since M/S assumes one figure 8, and one single other pattern mic, would I need additional hardware/software to accomplish this?

Just a taper/geek in search of answers, and this is the place to get them. TIA
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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Technical Mic Questions
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2007, 10:50:18 PM »
I am fortunate enough to have Neumann TLM 170s, which have five adjustable polar patterns: omni, subcard, card, hyper and figure 8.  In looking at the various polar pattern pickup diagrams, and from my own practical experimentation, I have several questions.

1.  Why do all hypercard mics have that rear lobe pickup pattern?   This seems counterintuitive, as you are trying to narrow the pickup pattern in front of the mic, which is accomplished, at the cost of picking up unnecessary/unwanted sound from the rear, which otherwise is only picked up by the figure 8 pattern.

The polar pattern of a cardioid microphone must have a back port in order to use phase cancellation to create directionality..


2.  What would happen if you used something like this  http://cgi.ebay.com/SE-ELECTRONICS-Reflexion-Filter-Mic-Ambience-Reflector_W0QQitemZ250078926416QQihZ015QQcategoryZ41466QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem , or something smaller and homemade, to try to block out some of that rear lobe and pickup.  Would it be better to make it convex, rather than concave, in order to try to avoid reflection or echoing back of the sound coming from the front, although the manufacturers of this particular device seem to have gone to great lengths to assure sound absorption and dispersion?  What if it were as simple as a piece of heavy felt or fabric several inches behind the mic?

I use acoustic foam behind mics all the time in the studio.. So this is something that does change the sound it tends to make it warmer sounding. I don't know how it would work for taping live concerts but for vocals it would be sweet..


3.  From the various diagrams, the figure 8 pattern actually has the narrowest front (and matching rear) lobe. I have M/S capability in my deck and preamp, so what would happen if I ran two mics in figure 8, a la Blumlein, and then completely panned away the rear lobes?  Can this be done, and has anyone tried it?  Since M/S assumes one figure 8, and one single other pattern mic, would I need additional hardware/software to accomplish this?

The capsules outputs are combined you would have to separate them in order to achieve this... This is a basic principal of the 6 capsule surround sound mic. it would be very interesting.. You can change the sound quite a bit by changing the way the microphone capsules interact with one another. But again this requires separate outputs from each capsule.. 
Just a taper/geek in search of answers, and this is the place to get them. TIA





I know I have not really answered all of your questions I hope I was of some help..

Chris Church
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Offline gratefulphish

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Re: Technical Mic Questions
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2007, 10:59:38 PM »
I am not sure about your response to question 3., which could well be the fault of the way the question was written.  As I understand it, M/S encoding, recognizes that there are two separate "sides" to the mic, which is perpindicular to the stage.  It then allows you to mix the "left" with some of the center mic, and the same with the "right" side.  I am assuming that there is something akin to a pan control, to adjust between left and center, and right and center.  So what if you went with all left, or in my question, all front, and no back?  In other words, can you completely eliminate one side of the figure 8 in the post processing?
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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Technical Mic Questions
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2007, 11:42:28 PM »
I am not sure about your response to question 3., which could well be the fault of the way the question was written.  As I understand it, M/S encoding, recognizes that there are two separate "sides" to the mic, which is perpindicular to the stage.  It then allows you to mix the "left" with some of the center mic, and the same with the "right" side.  I am assuming that there is something akin to a pan control, to adjust between left and center, and right and center.  So what if you went with all left, or in my question, all front, and no back?  In other words, can you completely eliminate one side of the figure 8 in the post processing?

OK got you.. Then you would have stereo :) the whole point of MS encoding is simply that there must be a left right and center the Sony 909 or something like that uses a side firing capsule with a front firing capsule the name of this pattern escapes me but it has been done before.
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Offline gratefulphish

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Re: Technical Mic Questions
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2007, 12:13:19 AM »
I am simply trying to figure out if I can use the most limited polar pattern available, which would be half of the figure 8, by eliminating the other half with an M/S decoding process.  Thanks. and +T
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Offline DSatz

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Re: Technical Mic Questions
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2007, 11:09:00 AM »
gratefulphish, let me try to explain the basics of microphone patterns. Microphone designers can't just make up any old pattern they want; directional patterns result from the basic physics of how sound pressure is used to move the membrane(s) in the microphone. Two basic arrangements exist. All directional patterns come from using one or the other or various combinations of those two, so it's worth knowing what they are and how they can be combined. Then this whole picture begins to make sense.

The first, simpler arrangement is when a membrane simply responds to the sound pressure that reaches its front. The other, more complex arrangement is, the membrane is exposed both in front and in back, and it responds to the difference in sound pressure between its front and back. The first, simpler arrangement ("pressure response") results in an omnidirectional pickup pattern, while the second, more complex arrangement ("pressure gradient response") results in a bidirectional pattern--a "figure 8" shape, with the two lobes having opposite signal polarity from each other.

A hypercardioid microphone is basically a bidirectional microphone with a small degree of pressure response added--a blend of maybe 1/4 omni plus 3/4 figure-8. Adding the omni component increases the microphone's front sensitivity (since signals in the same polarity add together) and decreases the sensitivity of its rear lobe (since signals in opposite polarity tend to cancel). But it still has a front and a rear lobe, even though they're unequal in sensitivity. A hypercardioid is really just a lop-sided ("lop-fronted"?) figure-8.

A cardioid, by comparison, is a 50/50 mix of the two methods. The strength of its omni component exactly cancels the rear lobe of its figure-8 component, while doubling the sensitivity in front. If you mainly want to minimize rear-incident sound, cardioid is the pattern that does this the best. If on the other hand you want the narrowest front pickup pattern, figure-8 has that. Unfortunately you can't optimize both at the same time; those two requirements physically contradict each other to some extent.

Now if you look at the pattern selector of your microphone, you'll see that its five possible settings (apart from the "R") are just points along a continuum from omni to figure-8. As you move the dial, you are selecting the polarization voltage (and thus the sensitivity) for the rear half of the twin-diaphragm capsule. Sensitivity is directly proportional to this voltage, and the polarization on the front half of the capsule remains constant. In the omni setting, the back half of the capsule is charged as strongly as the front half, and with the same polarity. It is charged more weakly, but still in the same polarity, for the "wide cardioid" setting. It isn't polarized at all for cardioid; the front half of the capsule is a cardioid by itself. The rear half is polarized weakly (in inverse polarity) for super- or hypercardioid response, and at full strength (but again, in inverse polarity) for the figure-8 setting.

Some variable-pattern microphones such as the Neumann M 269 used potentiometers for pattern selection rather than switches with definite "stops" to them; maybe now you can imagine how this is possible. For that matter, a few microphones have been designed with one pure pressure transducer and one pure pressure-gradient transducer in them, and the pattern control simply varies the mix between them, allowing any first-order pattern to be produced. In that type of design, the omni setting has full low-frequency response and freedom from proximity effect, wind and breath noise, etc., so it's a rather interesting approach.

--best regards

P.S.: Actually the so-called "hypercardioid" pattern of a TLM 170 is a bit closer to being supercardioid (it has a little more omni and a little less figure-8 than a classic hypercardioid), but that's equally true of most "hypercardioid" microphones, including the Schoeps MK 41 capsule and Neumann's own KM 185 or KM 150. Pragmatically, people mostly find that the rear lobe of a true hypercardioid is just too much, and for various reasons you can also get more extended response at both ends of the frequency spectrum if you move more toward a supercardioid pattern.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2007, 11:19:32 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline DSatz

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Re: Technical Mic Questions
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2007, 11:41:03 AM »
> I am simply trying to figure out if I can use the most limited polar pattern available, which would be half of the figure 8, by eliminating the other half with an M/S decoding process.

The answer is, unfortunately, no.

The matrixing part of your idea is entirely possible; you could cancel out the figure-8's rear lobe by matrixing in a second signal from a cardioid of similar 0-degree sensitivity. But then you'd end up with a front-facing cardioid pattern that is just as broad as any other cardioid would have been in the first place!

(If you want to discuss why this is so, we can, but first I'd want to know whether you remember the cosine function from your math classes. If you do, that would save us an awful lot of verbal hand-waving ...)

Switchable-pattern condenser microphones with multiple membranes and various circuit arrangements to combine their outputs have been around since the 1930s. Everyone, at some point or other, probably wishes for the same thing that you do. If it could be achieved by such means as you are describing, it surely would have been an option in all switchable-pattern condenser microphones since before we were born (even me). The engineers back then were limited in the electronic devices they had available and in the precision of some of their tools, but they understood acoustics very well.

In reality you have to choose which parameter you want to optimize--either the narrowest front-facing pattern or the best null in the back. Or you can split the difference (i.e. use a super- or hypercardioid pattern)--but you can't optimize both characteristics in the same microphone at the same time.

--condolences and best regards
« Last Edit: February 09, 2007, 02:03:05 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Roving Sign

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Re: Technical Mic Questions
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2007, 11:54:11 AM »
Thanks for this fine post...

DSatz - 7 of the best posts ever on TS.com!

Right up there with SparkE! for concise, informative posts!

Thanks...

Offline leshlush

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Re: Technical Mic Questions
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2007, 12:21:19 PM »
Thanks for this fine post...

DSatz - 7 of the best posts ever on TS.com!

Right up there with SparkE! for concise, informative posts!

Thanks...

I completely agree... + T and another in twelve
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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Technical Mic Questions
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2007, 12:25:47 PM »
Thanks for this fine post...

DSatz - 7 of the best posts ever on TS.com!

Right up there with SparkE! for concise, informative posts!

Thanks...

I agree too I wish I could be that concise in my posts! Its in my brain I just cant get it out in print lol. T+ To this guy he knows his shit!
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Offline gratefulphish

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Re: Technical Mic Questions
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2007, 01:26:18 PM »
DSatz    Super +T for the response, and detailed explanation.  This is the link to the interactive mic pattern page for the TLM-170s http://www.neumann.com/zoom.php?zoomimg=./assets/diagrams/tlm170r_diagrams.htm&zoomlabel=Diagram&w=878&h=278

Looking at the lobes of the patterns, it almost seems as if the subcard has a smaller lobe than the card pattern.  The figure 8, is the narrowest of all.  You may have fully answered my question, but I may not have phrased it completely correctly, now that I have read your responses.  So, with your permission, I'd like to ask one more.

What if I did as I indicated, and ran both mics set at figure 8, in M/S mode, but in decoding, mixed in "nothing" in the other channel.  In other words, have the figure 8 of each mic panned to the fullest of the opposite directions, without actually mixing in a center signal.  Would the M/S decoder allow you to do this, or will it insist on some signal, which theoretically could be another mic, with the gain all the way down.  The part of your response that I really did not understand was thyis:

"The matrixing part of your idea is entirely possible; you could cancel out the figure-8's rear lobe by matrixing in a second signal from a cardioid of similar 0-degree sensitivity. But then you'd end up with a front-facing cardioid pattern that is just as broad as any other cardioid would have been in the first place!"

What if I matrixed in nothing in this situation?  If you are saying that the lobes for the figure 8 and standard card are identical, then I get it, but do not understand the true meaning of the diagrams on the Neumann site.  Otherwise, I am still trying to figure out whether there is some way to isolate the signals from the two figure 8 mics, so that I am only getting what appears to be the smaller, narrower frontal lobes of the figure 8, and canceling out the rears. 

I truly appreciate your extremely knowledgeable response.  I am just trying to seek knowledge, and you seem like an excellent source.  BTW, if we need to get into the mathematical discsussion, those files were lost in a previous cranial hard drive failure, but my daughter has aced every calculus course there is, so maybe I need to have you speak with her.
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Offline eric.B

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Re: Technical Mic Questions
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2007, 01:35:28 PM »
If rear rejection is your goal..  why not just run MS with card mid and dial down the sides(fig8) to your liking.  I would think you could eliminate the rear "allmost" completely..
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Offline gratefulphish

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Re: Technical Mic Questions
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2007, 02:02:01 PM »
If rear rejection is your goal..  why not just run MS with card mid and dial down the sides(fig8) to your liking.  I would think you could eliminate the rear "allmost" completely..

What I am trying to do is run both mics in figure 8, with midside encoding, say in an X/Y pattern, rather than the typical M/S setup, where the single M/S mic is perpindicular to the stage. Then I want to be able to process out the entire rear lobe of each, if, the big if, this can be done, and will give me the narrower pickup pattern that seems to be acheivable from the figure 8.
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stirinthesauce

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Re: Technical Mic Questions
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2007, 03:26:51 PM »
Then I want to be able to process out the entire rear lobe of each, if, the big if, this can be done, and will give me the narrower pickup pattern that seems to be acheivable from the figure 8.


The matrixing part of your idea is entirely possible; you could cancel out the figure-8's rear lobe by matrixing in a second signal from a cardioid of similar 0-degree sensitivity. But then you'd end up with a front-facing cardioid pattern that is just as broad as any other cardioid would have been in the first place!


If rear rejection is your goal..  why not just run MS with card mid and dial down the sides(fig8) to your liking.  I would think you could eliminate the rear "allmost" completely..




stirinthesauce

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Re: Technical Mic Questions
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2007, 03:28:12 PM »
The answer to your question seems to be in the quoted parts above.  Probably not what you are looking for though.

Your other option for ultra directionality is shotguns. 

 

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