Topic: Mic configuration exam

[blindcan]

Ok, all you sound engineer grad students: I will be recording a roots rock blues band at a local bar. It is small and jam packed whenever they play. The club is divided into two rooms by a wall with three large, arched openings about 12 feet from the stage and there are always two large immovable tables right in front of this. it would be possible to set up in there, but the risk of spilled beer and knocked over stands is high as people try to get in and out. The PA monitors are hung from the ceiling, as are two stage monitors that face the stage. I have always found that when standing at the lip of the stage, I get a great sound from the two stage monitors over and slightly behind my head. I have always thought that you could get a great recording by clamping your mics to the ceiling over the stage and facing the monitors/crowd. The PA monitors hang from a steel bar that runs over the stage and would provide a perfect place to mount them. I've got the go ahead from the band and club.

Now the question. There is about 5 feet between the stage monitors and the bar where the mics would be mounted. The mics would be almost directly above the stage lip. What kind of caps and configuration would you use? I can run AKG 390 cards or hyper cards. I have a stereo bar that would allow for OTRF, DIN, or X/Y. I have attached a sketch of the room. The dotted lines are the monitors and the mounting bars. the mics would be on the bar marked "bar 8' high." So whaddaya think? Credit in the source info for good suggestions. 

[sygdwm]

i guess i would run cards either din or xy pointing at the monitors.

[Hatfield]

i guess i would run cards either din or xy pointing at the monitors.

yup... I would go with Din config, cards

Good luck

[stirinthesauce]

Cards, DIN or ORTF.  That close, ORTF would be my first choice.

[F.O.Bean]

I would actually maybe try XY that close and point it right at the stack. ive had to just run XY in a few rowdy bars in Pittsburgh and for the most part, it worked out great. obviously there isnt much imaging or soundstage but if you want a recording of the show that sounds solid all the way around, do it. id rather do a stack tape than nothing. and running DIN on a stack tape gets too much chatter IMO. id go XY right at the stack and be done with it. I might even decrease the mic angle to like 70 degrees, but def not any smaller than that.... you should be happy with those results. and as always, experimenting is fun and its the ONLY way you'll gain experience. trial and error can be a beautiful thing as long as you learn from your mistakes(ive forgotten everything i could including my DAT for oswego phish 1999 and my stand at NYE 1999 Phish in the everglades, just learn from your mistakes and you'll be good )

Have fun and good luck. Please let us know what you chose to do and how you liked the results.

[blindcan]

I went with DIN at 5' so the mics ended up pointing at the outside edge of the monitors. the results are pretty good, i think. Perhaps a bit harsh. ORTF maybe would mitigate that some? I don't have omni caps, but i am thinking that they might round out the sound, too.

the show was King Johnson, featuring Oliver Wood, Chris Wood's brother, on guitar. a lot of the same songs as the Wood Brothers but a totally different feel, with horns and funky beat. Great bar band. Grant Green, Jr. sat in on the 3rd set for some smokin' blues riffs. you can check out the results yourself at archive.org in a day or two.

[Church-Audio]

Ok, all you sound engineer grad students: I will be recording a roots rock blues band at a local bar. It is small and jam packed whenever they play. The club is divided into two rooms by a wall with three large, arched openings about 12 feet from the stage and there are always two large immovable tables right in front of this. it would be possible to set up in there, but the risk of spilled beer and knocked over stands is high as people try to get in and out. The PA monitors are hung from the ceiling, as are two stage monitors that face the stage. I have always found that when standing at the lip of the stage, I get a great sound from the two stage monitors over and slightly behind my head. I have always thought that you could get a great recording by clamping your mics to the ceiling over the stage and facing the monitors/crowd. The PA monitors hang from a steel bar that runs over the stage and would provide a perfect place to mount them. I've got the go ahead from the band and club.

Now the question. There is about 5 feet between the stage monitors and the bar where the mics would be mounted. The mics would be almost directly above the stage lip. What kind of caps and configuration would you use? I can run AKG 390 cards or hyper cards. I have a stereo bar that would allow for OTRF, DIN, or X/Y. I have attached a sketch of the room. The dotted lines are the monitors and the mounting bars. the mics would be on the bar marked "bar 8' high." So whaddaya think? Credit in the source info for good suggestions. 

My answer would be this.

I cant answer your question with out hearing the band and the mix in the room and on stage ( during sound check) Then I would know how to place the mics in the room.

I know a lot of people will disagree with me but that's just my two cents.

[Nate]

what if you don't get a chance to hear a sound check?   do you make your changes after the first song?  Seriously, how often does anyone actually get to listen to a sound check?   I'd say I get to hear it about 10% of the times I record.  DIN cards.

[eric.B]

what if you don't get a chance to hear a sound check?   do you make your changes after the first song?  Seriously, how often does anyone actually get to listen to a sound check?   I'd say I get to hear it about 10% of the times I record.  DIN cards.

If I was able.. this is what I would do..   default being din of course and I would set up so I could move as the night progresses/after a tune or two..   The problem in this scenario in setting up to tape a pa speaker *without* being able to move could be the difference between a good/room tape, and a tape that is pretty much tough to listen to.  I have heard many a monitor or pa speaker sound wayyyyy worse than the whole room when these types of situations come up.  So be ready to move, find the "sweetspot"(if there is even one), and get the best tape you can.

[Church-Audio]

what if you don't get a chance to hear a sound check?   do you make your changes after the first song?  Seriously, how often does anyone actually get to listen to a sound check?   I'd say I get to hear it about 10% of the times I record.  DIN cards.

Well since I am a sound man I get to listen to them all the time But seriously how could you place a mic properly with out hearing the source.. You cant. All you can do is guess, so there is no Correct answer to this question.

[iriewsp]

My question is why would you want to record the monitor mix?  How often do bands have all the instruments coming through the monitor mix?  Not many of the bands I work with. 

[Church-Audio]

My question is why would you want to record the monitor mix?  How often do bands have all the instruments coming through the monitor mix?  Not many of the bands I work with. 

Yeah well I said that along time ago but nobody listened to me 

[blindcan]

I finally got this show up on the Archive if anyone wants to give it a listen.
http://www.archive.org/details/kingjohnson2007-03-09.akg391.flac16
I think it sounds pretty good  , although the vocals and horns tend to be a little bright compared to the drums and bass. The drums were only miked through the bass drum, so it may be missing a bit of snap there.

So I am recording at this venue again this weekend, and I was thinking about running omnis from the same location. Being over the stage, i might get better pick up on the drums and more sound from the amps onstage to balance the vocals and horns. Since the cards were pointed toward the crowd before, i don't think the omnis will add to that noise. the only thing "behind" the mics will be the drums, with the amps for guitars and bass being under the mics. whaddayathink?

as far as moving around, listening to the sound check, etc., those are not really options in this place. it's hard enough to move around in there with just a beer in your hand, much less a recording rig  . I got the idea of recording from the monitors from standing at the lip of the stage for the same band in the same venue and noting that the sound was good from that location. it's definitely possible to set up where the wall is between the rooms and point at the stacks, but this set up keeps my gear off the floor and let's *me* move around without having to fuss over my gear. anyway, i'd love to hear what anybody thinks about the omnis idea. thanks for all the input!!

[newblue]

I'm with Bean and dre, xy cards.  If you run DIN or ORTF, I would imagine that you would be excluding a good portion of the stage volume being so close.  Split omnis would be another option or subcard NOS (maybe even a spaced A/B config.).

[blindcan]

If I were to run split omnis, how far apart would you place them (I have 9' to work with on the bar between the PA speakers), and where should I point them? At the monitors or at the stage?Sorry for so many questions. I'm, like, so totally n00b, dude...