Topic: Need advice on upgrade of my rig. Mic preamp or R-09?

[daveydave]

Here's what I have going for a rig:

AT933's -> SPSB6 Battery Box -> JB3

Love the JB3, but would really like to get the Edirol R-09 as my next recorder for the field. 
I mostly tape rock shows but I have a bunch of dynamic / acoustic / jazz shows coming up. 

Recently, I had a show where I needed to apply more amplification in post processing than I would normally do.  I really came to appreciate the idea behind a mic preamp due to this experience.

Thus, I am considering the purchase of a good preamp (thinking Church 9100 or AD-20 as they are somewhat stealth), or changing recorders to the Edirol R-09.

I can currently afford 1 or the other, but not both... taking into consideration the mic pre being $200 - $250, or the R-09 (currently getting $350 online). 

What I'm wondering is if the R-09 has better Audio Conversion under dynamic recording situations like acoutic and jazz shows in comparison to the JB3.  Specifically, does it produce less noise than the JB3? 

Anyon have the SNR on the R-09???

Based on the expertise on this board, what do you folks think?  Better off going with a decent mic preamp such as the AD-20, or going to the new recorder?  What would you put first?

Dave

[poorlyconditioned]

Here's what I have going for a rig:

AT933's -> SPSB6 Battery Box -> JB3

Love the JB3, but would really like to get the Edirol R-09 as my next recorder for the field. 
I mostly tape rock shows but I have a bunch of dynamic / acoustic / jazz shows coming up. 

Recently, I had a show where I needed to apply more amplification in post processing than I would normally do.  I really came to appreciate the idea behind a mic preamp due to this experience.

Thus, I am considering the purchase of a good preamp (thinking Church 9100 or AD-20 as they are somewhat stealth), or changing recorders to the Edirol R-09.

I can currently afford 1 or the other, but not both... taking into consideration the mic pre being $200 - $250, or the R-09 (currently getting $350 online). 

What I'm wondering is if the R-09 has better Audio Conversion under dynamic recording situations like acoutic and jazz shows in comparison to the JB3.  Specifically, does it produce less noise than the JB3? 

Anyon have the SNR on the R-09???

Based on the expertise on this board, what do you folks think?  Better off going with a decent mic preamp such as the AD-20, or going to the new recorder?  What would you put first?

Dave

I highly recommend the Edirol R09.  For anything but very quiet shows, this will sound great.  And it is a joy to use.  I've run all kinds of mics (Sennheiser MKE2, AT853, CK91 caps, etc) straight into mic in.  I would rate the quality similar to a stock UA5 (with less gain).  Go for it...

  Richard

[daveydave]

Richard,

You don't go line-in?  Is there any particular reason why you use mic instead of line?  Anything special about line-in on the R-09?

Many thanks for the info on the R-09

dave

[rowjimmytour]

When it comes to upgrades I have come to the conclusion that mics come first, pre, and then recorder. Ya also have consider if ya want to go beyond 16 bit if so then your order might change. It does not sound like your ready to upgrade mics at this time so I would say pre over R-09. Also if ya save a little more cas or go used have ya considered a Marantz 660(16 bit only). The 660 would give ya a pre and recorder all in one and mabey you can find a Oade mod one in YS.
Peace

[Church-Audio]

Here's what I have going for a rig:

AT933's -> SPSB6 Battery Box -> JB3

Love the JB3, but would really like to get the Edirol R-09 as my next recorder for the field. 
I mostly tape rock shows but I have a bunch of dynamic / acoustic / jazz shows coming up. 

Recently, I had a show where I needed to apply more amplification in post processing than I would normally do.  I really came to appreciate the idea behind a mic preamp due to this experience.

Thus, I am considering the purchase of a good preamp (thinking Church 9100 or AD-20 as they are somewhat stealth), or changing recorders to the Edirol R-09.

I can currently afford 1 or the other, but not both... taking into consideration the mic pre being $200 - $250, or the R-09 (currently getting $350 online). 

What I'm wondering is if the R-09 has better Audio Conversion under dynamic recording situations like acoutic and jazz shows in comparison to the JB3.  Specifically, does it produce less noise than the JB3? 

Anyon have the SNR on the R-09???

Based on the expertise on this board, what do you folks think?  Better off going with a decent mic preamp such as the AD-20, or going to the new recorder?  What would you put first?

Dave

Before you get a preamp you should change the JB3 to an EDIROL you will be very happy with that recorder, for doing most types of recording it will work well with out a preamp. The only time you will need one is when you are wanting to record very quiet acoustic stuff. Then a preamp can help. You already have a nice set of mics my next purchase would be an edirol r-09. Then see if you need a preamp after.

Good luck with your setup.

[poorlyconditioned]

Richard,

You don't go line-in?  Is there any particular reason why you use mic instead of line?  Anything special about line-in on the R-09?

Many thanks for the info on the R-09

dave

Mic in (low-sens) covers a wide range.  I forget the details (they are on Guy Sonic's website), but I think it is something like -25dBV to +5dBV.  Whatever, it is *perfect* for AT853/AT933, a reasonably sensitive mic, and running at amplified shows.  Get a preamp later, but this is the most sensible upgrade given that you've already got a good set of (stealth) mics.

  Richard

[Brennan]

Have to add to the R-09's rep. Ran a cheap RadioShack clip-on omni into Mic in with level set at 1 (out of 30 lol) just to see if that would work. Recording came out incredibly low (but not distorted for once!), maybe peaking at around -35dB. I thought there would be no reconciliation, but I took a chance and raised the levels a whole 32dB!

I was (and still am) amazed at how little the hiss is audible. I mean, unless you crank the volume, it's not there..literally..

For the money it's well worth it. 24-bit on this thing apparently isn't actually true 24-bit, but maybe someone else can elaborate on this for me

[poorlyconditioned]

Have to add to the R-09's rep. Ran a cheap RadioShack clip-on omni into Mic in with level set at 1 (out of 30 lol) just to see if that would work. Recording came out incredibly low (but not distorted for once!), maybe peaking at around -35dB. I thought there would be no reconciliation, but I took a chance and raised the levels a whole 32dB!

I was (and still am) amazed at how little the hiss is audible. I mean, unless you crank the volume, it's not there..literally..

For the money it's well worth it. 24-bit on this thing apparently isn't actually true 24-bit, but maybe someone else can elaborate on this for me

That's right.  It only has about 15 bits.  The 16th bit is pretty much noise, no matter what settings/gain you use.

Still a great recorder, though.  Once you start using it you'll be hooked.  Both the Edirol R4 and R09 are a pleasure to use...

  Richard

[mattb]

Hey, I have the AT933s. I even got different mics for a while but now I'm back to them again. I guess I like 'em.
Anyway, I think the best upgrade I did was the un-mod, which returned the SP two wire config back to three wire. I went with a UA-5 and AT phantom adapters. Of course that's more stuff and it sounds like you want to go low pro, but maybe you can get a three wire box. The additional power really seemed to make those little mics sound better and they can handle way higher spl levels without brickwalling now too.
And if you want to keep your costs down I think the iRiver H120 (with Rockbox & REP) makes a nice recorder and a significant upgrade from the JB3.

[poorlyconditioned]

Hey, I have the AT933s. I even got different mics for a while but now I'm back to them again. I guess I like 'em.
Anyway, I think the best upgrade I did was the un-mod, which returned the SP two wire config back to three wire. I went with a UA-5 and AT phantom adapters. Of course that's more stuff and it sounds like you want to go low pro, but maybe you can get a three wire box. The additional power really seemed to make those little mics sound better and they can handle way higher spl levels without brickwalling now too.
And if you want to keep your costs down I think the iRiver H120 (with Rockbox & REP) makes a nice recorder and a significant upgrade from the JB3.

I have not tried the iRiver, but people say it has the same ADC chip as the NJB3, and without real (analog) gain.

If you want cheap, go with minidisc.  If you have a bit more money, get the Edirol.  Both have great analog inputs.  I would only use NJB3/iRiver as a bit bucket.

  Richard

[daveydave]

Many thanks for the fantastic advice and suggestions from all of you!   

It's good to hear what I was hoping to hear...that the R-09 is definitely quiter than the NJB3.  Buying with confidence is important IMO.  Knowing I'll at least get some improvement just from the R-09 upgrade makes me feel a bit easier about the upgrade.   

The current setup will change from:
AT933's -> Batt Box -> NJB3 (line in) to
AT933's -> Batt Box -> R-09 (line or mic in) - thanks to Richard I'll read up on the R-09 issues, to
AT933's -> Preamp 9100 -> R-09

I definitely think I may purchase an AD-20 or something pro level after this summer.  For now, I like the idea of going even lighter with the 9100.  Heck, last time I checked, I wasn't a kangaroo ;-).

Chris - I definitely appreciate the placement of your professional opinion before a business sale.  Nice to know you are still one of us & not just "another retailer."  I've always enjoyed and taken good information from your posts - they answer the question asked and not necessarily the rig that another post would go to (a completely common practice around here IMO).  I'll definitely be sending you some future business. 

Row, Brennen and Matt - thanks for your high recommendation of the R-09 for my situation.  I'll definitely walk through the doors being confident. 

I'll be back in several weeks with an update and let you all know how it goes!

All the best!

Dave

[mattb]

Hey, I have the AT933s. I even got different mics for a while but now I'm back to them again. I guess I like 'em.
Anyway, I think the best upgrade I did was the un-mod, which returned the SP two wire config back to three wire. I went with a UA-5 and AT phantom adapters. Of course that's more stuff and it sounds like you want to go low pro, but maybe you can get a three wire box. The additional power really seemed to make those little mics sound better and they can handle way higher spl levels without brickwalling now too.
And if you want to keep your costs down I think the iRiver H120 (with Rockbox & REP) makes a nice recorder and a significant upgrade from the JB3.

I have not tried the iRiver, but people say it has the same ADC chip as the NJB3, and without real (analog) gain.

If you want cheap, go with minidisc.  If you have a bit more money, get the Edirol.  Both have great analog inputs.  I would only use NJB3/iRiver as a bit bucket.

  Richard

Hmmm. I guess I didn't realize that. I've always run through my UA-5 since getting the iRiver. Good to know.

Matt

[BJ]

Here's what I have going for a rig:

AT933's -> SPSB6 Battery Box -> JB3

Love the JB3, but would really like to get the Edirol R-09 as my next recorder for the field. 
I mostly tape rock shows but I have a bunch of dynamic / acoustic / jazz shows coming up. 

Recently, I had a show where I needed to apply more amplification in post processing than I would normally do.  I really came to appreciate the idea behind a mic preamp due to this experience.

Thus, I am considering the purchase of a good preamp (thinking Church 9100 or AD-20 as they are somewhat stealth), or changing recorders to the Edirol R-09.

I can currently afford 1 or the other, but not both... taking into consideration the mic pre being $200 - $250, or the R-09 (currently getting $350 online). 

What I'm wondering is if the R-09 has better Audio Conversion under dynamic recording situations like acoutic and jazz shows in comparison to the JB3.  Specifically, does it produce less noise than the JB3? 

Anyon have the SNR on the R-09???

Based on the expertise on this board, what do you folks think?  Better off going with a decent mic preamp such as the AD-20, or going to the new recorder?  What would you put first?

Dave

if your budget is tight...consider that the r-09 will incure additional costs in that it will require you to purchase sd cards, pushing it over 400$ for the total.  I love my r-09, but you can't forget that expense, or you might have a very nice paperweight until you save up for the cards 

[Looney]

New R-09 = 323.00 no shipping no tax

http://taperssection.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=2e7f3c3f7b20c7f28c0975dc539879c7&topic=81110.0

new 2G card = 53.95 - 49.00 rebate = 4.95

http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=202743332&adid=17070&dcaid=17070

total cost, not including mics 328.00

[ballerusk]

Another thumbs-up for the R-09, easy-peasy to record with: press power, hit record 2 times and you're off  (if you've got it set on the recording settings you want that is)

With the new firmware you can also turn off the red light when recording (no bright light to harm Gizmo!).