total newbie question (jb3 content)

[switters]

ok i have recently been getting the urge to start taping shows through patching.  In doing so, i have been led to two relatively cheaper way of starting.  One is taping via laptop, the other is using a JB3.  I was hoping that someone could possibly lead me to some of the pros and cons of each of these means of patching.  Thanks for any help!

[twatts]

To patch out of your typical DAT chain, you'll need a Midiman CO2 or similar digital format convertor to use the NJ3.  

To do stand alone recording (your the only one there), you can go rca>min plug straight from the SBD>NJ3 no problems.

The NJ3 is a great device for the money.

If you already own a laptop, go with that...  

Terry

[switters]

thanks twatts...i do own a laptop...does a laptop produce better sound quality patches than a jukebox?

[Kindguy]

thanks twatts...i do own a laptop...does a laptop produce better sound quality patches than a jukebox?

If the person your patching from is running 24/96, 24/48 ect yes. 16 bit it should be the same.

You'll need a VX pocket & batt power & that could run as high as 500 bucks.

This is why I sold my dat & use laptop.

Laptop pros
No transfer. 24/96 recordings.

Laptop cons.
Battery power. Size. Cost

The JB3 is a great little unit. IMO. Easy transfers. Small. You'll need a grey box or C02 to change a coax signal to optical. So you can fit in anywhere in the patch chain.

To just patch I'd say go with the JB3. because of the size. Search around & you'll find plenty of topics on both the jb3 & lappys.

Welcome & T+

[chuckcage]

To patch out of your typical DAT chain, you'll need a Midiman CO2 or similar digital format convertor to use the NJ3.  

I hear from the Yahoo group njb3tapers (and elsewhere) that some people are having a lot of trouble with the CO2 and the NJB3.  Like so much you hear about the NBJ3 though, it's hard to separate purist problems from problems you'll really cry over.  If you're planning on getting the NJB3 pretty much solely for this purpose, I'd do some research to see!

To do stand alone recording (your the only one there), you can go rca>min plug straight from the SBD>NJ3 no problems.

Ok, I always get flamed to a crisp when I say this, but I've had nothing but a bad experience with the NJB3 using anything but the optical in.  

When I first got the NJB3, I thought I'd use it to record my own (now defunct) original band's performances.  Mainly, I was looking to save transfer time as we were playing more and more.  I'd been recording us with a cheap little ECM-MS907 > MZ-R50 setup, which worked great because most of the time I couldn't attend it more than just pushing record and running for the stage.  So, I was going to go 907 > NJB3, take a minute longer to set levels, and save 3 hours transfering the show.

When I got the NJB3, I hooked it up with the mic and discovered what many now already know -- the preamp in the NJB3 sounds beyond awful.  Some say that it's not a preamp at all, but rather a "digital scaling" of the signal, but that's been argued as changed from the NJB2 to 3.  Regardless, it sounds like ass.  

So, I got out my Mackie board, ran my CD player in, out to the NJB3, and used the preamp in the Mackie.  Recorded both line in and mic in with +0 boost.  Both, to my ears, sounded awful.

I got scared and got ready to return it, but decided to go ahead and take the plunge and pick up a Denecke AD-20, which did the trick.  

So -- ok everyone, flame away -- I feel like the NJB3 is unusable without an outboard converter.  You could use the AD-20 with some pads going in, but that seems like overkill if you're buying the rig for that purpose.  

The NJ3 is a great device for the money.

Man, I totally agree here.  Originally, I just wanted to avoid those transfers.  I have a couple of laptops, so I started looking that way.  By the time I got everything I need, I was spending as much $$ as my little NJB3 rig, but I had to lug around all the stuff.

I love my NJB3, and I have yet to come across the problems most people post about.  I attribute this at least partially to the fact that I don't use it as an MP3 player or carry it around in a pocket; It just sits in its padded box for recording use.  I transfer all my recordings to the computer (via firewire -- joy!), burn a copy for storage, track it w/CDWav, and enjoy it.

(I put together a PC for my entertainment center a while back which holds both my CD collection as 192k MP3s and my live recordings -- au natural, of course.)

Good luck with the NJB3.  I think it's a great piece of gear, but do some research and make sure it's the right gear for your needs.

Chuck

[bush]

Very Good advice Chuck  +T

[switters]

one more newbie question...what is a grey box??? also, thanks for all the help

[chuckcage]

one more newbie question...what is a grey box??? also, thanks for all the help

That's the Midiman CO2 everyone's talking about.

Again, good luck.  Just remember to take everyone's advice (mine included) with a grain of salt.  YMMV.

Chuck

[switters]

thanks chuck!

[twatts]

The "greybox" is a Digital Format Convertor.  You can do a search here and find out more...

As for whether or not a laptop is better, it not that it will sound better, but it offers greater flexibility:

NJ3 is only 16 bit, 44 or 48 K (and MP3), whereas a laptop, you can record 24 bit, 192 K if you want depending on your soundcard (which you can update, change, improve, etc.)  

Laptop, with their large screens, also offer better user interface (LARGE meters, etc.) and there is generally no limit to the amount you can record (how big is you HD???)  The NJ3, while much cheaper, only lets you record in 3 hours chunks...

T

[switters]

 Does that unit(the grey box) repeat the signal to the coax out and to the optical in at the same time?  I guess im asking, can someone patch behind me?

As for my laptop, it has a 40 gig harddrive...my main issues right now are these...when i get into something, i get real into it...i dont wanna buy gear and then find that i am extremely limited based on my choice...id rather put a little more in up front and not be limited...at the same time, i dont have tons of excess case and need the cheapest, most practical setup to be able to make recordings!!

[rowjimmy]

The greybox is different from the Midiman C02. Similar function, tho.

greybox: http://www.american-digital.com/prodsite/product.asp?p=890

c02: http://www.american-digital.com/prodsite/product.asp?p=193

lots of folks have panned the C02 > JB3 in a variety of forums (I'm a new JB3 owner and have been reading up quite a bit.) The greybox has its detractors as well, but, for the money it seems a better bet.

Also, has anyone looked @ the Midiman C03? It costs a bit more, does a bit more, but is it any more bit-accurate?

[Simp-Dawg]

Does that unit(the grey box) repeat the signal to the coax out and to the optical in at the same time?  I guess im asking, can someone patch behind me?

As for my laptop, it has a 40 gig harddrive...my main issues right now are these...when i get into something, i get real into it...i dont wanna buy gear and then find that i am extremely limited based on my choice...id rather put a little more in up front and not be limited...at the same time, i dont have tons of excess case and need the cheapest, most practical setup to be able to make recordings!!

1. grey box and co2 are different units.  i know the co2 (made by midiman) will output to both coax and optical simultaneously so you can reside anywhere in a chain.

2. 40gb is a great size for recording.  you'd be good to go with that.  

3. if you want to have further options down the road (ie. higher resolution recordings, ability to multitrack, etc) then laptop is going to be a better route for you, but again it involves (typically) more cash up front, more cash down the road, a good amount of understanding of computers (or at least a willingness to learn/follow directions) and some technical savvy.
there's a post in the archive section (http://www.taperssection.com/yabbse/index.php?board=14;action=display;threadid=6717) that gives lots of info on setting up a laptop.
bottom line is with a laptop there are many many different interfaces which can accomplish a multitude of results for you, whether you want to run mics > preamp > a/d > laptop, line > a/d > laptop, multiple channels > a/d > laptop, and on and on.  it depends how much you want to spend, what connections you have to interface with (usb, firewire, pcmcia), and what you want to carry.  that last one is a biggie...how much shit do ya wanna lug around?!  it works for me as i custom fitted a pelican case for my laptop, usbpre, and other items (mics included) which isn't too bad to carry like a briefcase, plus a light backpack with my external battery (valence n-charge) and cables, shockmounts, etc.  you would greatly reduce your load with a njb3+cables+extra battery+whatever.  main drawback to njb3 that i see is it is limited to 16-bit/44.1 or 48khz and you really shuold get a convertor to go from coax>optical or a separate a/d altogether with optical out, or a/d with coax out + a converter box.

[chuckcage]

I stand corrected regarding the CO2.  Oops!

Your "laptop vs. NJB3" concerns really strike home with me, as that's exactly the situation I face.  I'm a software developer, so I always have a pretty new laptop.  (Right now I'm on a 1.8 P4 Sony w/16.1 display.)  And, I generally have a few of my past units around, too.  So when I first started thinking about recording, I figured the best thing to do would be to leverage those assets.  

I guess it depends a lot on the budget.  The tricky thing (in my brief experience) about putting together a recording rig is that often the "accessories" add up to a significant cost of the rig.  So, when you start looking at different equipment routes, the "accessory" cost can be an issue.

For example, I considered the following:  (I already had some low-end-but-decent mics from my live sound PA rig.)

1. Laptop  (Preamp > Converter > Digital Interface Card > Laptop)

This route looked pretty cool, as the AD-20 or UA-5 handles the preamp/converter in the $300-$350 range.  There was some difference there, too.  The UA-5 looked cheaper at first, but when you add the standalone mod and a battery, it's more expensive.  (Though many here say it's worth the difference!)  Interface cards are in the $100-$200 range.  I have a laptop.  Total estimated system cost: $400 - $550.

But then you have to think about power.  By the time you pick up a battery to run the laptop for 3 hours, you're looking at another $200-$500.  Ouch.

2. NJB3 (Preamp > Converter > NJB3)

So you're out, say, $250 for the NJB3 and $300 for an AD-20.  Same initial system cost as the laptop rig.  

BUT -- no battery issues.  You've got LIon in the NJB3, and the AD-20 runs damn near forever off a 9v.

So, for starters, you're $200-$500 less.  The kicker for me was that I also didn't have to take my nice (or even not-so-nice) laptop into smoky bars/venues and have it smell like a wet ashtray the way everything else I've ever carried in does.

Really, though, since you're talking about patching only, maybe the laptop would be great.  There was a guy at the Dallas moe. show who brought his laptop with an interface card.  He ended up patched off one of the nice rigs on either side of me (either Drew's ADK TL > UA-5 or Wayne's 4-mic Earthworks mix).  I bet he got a better outcome than me.    

I guess a lot of my thinking was alse centered around making sure that I didn't spend too much on something until I know it was really for me.

So much for that.  It's definitely for me.  I love listening to the few shows I've recorded so far, and I can't wait for the next one.  Who knows.

In the end, though, I'm learning that it's not what your gear is, but the fact that you're there, and (hopefully) the fact that you enjoy listening to your recordings.

Chuck

[Ed.]

use both, more toys = more fun.

the only time i've ever had a problem with my njb3 and show quality is when its nearly full.  I had like 16gigs worth of stuff on it and went out recording.  the shows came out a bit glitchy.  so i formatted the drive and did a scan disc, that took care of everything.  i'd say its probably good to clean if all off once a month or every few months, just to be safe.

ed