Topic: Phantom Power Mic-In vs Line-In

[MJ]

Hi all
Currently I use the following gears assuming some others here do the same or the similar configures;

AT943s or AT853s >Nady Phantom Power Adapters>Denecke PS2 Mini >TCD-D100 (DAT)  http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,81782.0.html

Would you use Mic-In or Line In?  Is there any significant difference between Mic-In and Line-In?  Since I still have to use Phantom Power for a little while, I would appreciate any kind o suggestion.

Koichi.

[willndmb]

looking at the above chain - i think you would use mic in. there is nothing in your chain to change the mic signal to a line signal that i know of
BUT
looking at the chain in the link - you would use line in, the battery box converts the signal to line level

[blastroknow]

I bet line in would be the best choice especially for loud shows.

Line in is typically a quieter input than mic in but if you are in a quiet acoustic setting you might need the extra gain from the mic setting.

[nameloc01]

i run the exact same thing (u853>nady adapters>denecke ps-2) into a mz-m100 hi-md. i always run line in, the mic in is very easily overpowered and i have gotten a few brickwalled pulls that way.

[MJ]

i run the exact same thing (u853>nady adapters>denecke ps-2) into a mz-m100 hi-md. i always run line in, the mic in is very easily overpowered and i have gotten a few brickwalled pulls that way.

Thank you very much for sharing your info.  But even though I set 10, the max on the recording level on my DAT for the loud rock show,  the level meter did not reach the half of the max.  So I asked Chris at SP and got a reply from him as follows;

When you have the mics changed to work with phantom power, the sensitivity of the mics is lowered, which is necessary so that they can handle louder sounds. Because of this, you will need to use the mic input in all but extremely loud situations.

Next week I will tape a loud rock show.  Maybe I will use the min input for a change and see how it will work out.

[landshark]

Hi Koichi -

Heh, you ask a great question - I had similar issues with my Korg MR-1.  Here's what I found:

Mics, whether they are phantom or otherwise powered, put out different amounts of energy in response to the same sound.  So two mics may have significantly different amounts of energy they put out.  The energy is measured in millivolts or dBv.  This energy usually has to be boosted before it is put into the digital-to-analog (DA) converter.  There are two ways of accomplishing this - 1.) use an external microphone preamplifier to boost the signal to "line" levels and feed into the "line" input, or 2.) use the recorder's internal mic preamp to boost the signal.  The internal mic preamp is usually fixed gain while an external preamp can be variable gain (and adjusted for the mic's specific characteristics).

The challenges are that "prosumer" gear (not quite pro, not quite consumer) tends to vary considerably in the minimum and maximum amount of energy they can take both from the "line in" as well as the "mic in".  If you try to pump in too much energy, the preamp or the amp barf on the excess energy/voltage and produce distortion (clipping/brickwalling).  In order to understand your device with your mic, you ultimately need to know those technical values for your gear. 

For example, my Korg MR-1 takes a nominal -39 dBv / maximum of -27 dBv on the mic input, but a nom -6 dbv / max of +6 dbv on the line in.  This means the range of energy for mic input is a tiny window (dBv is a logarithmic scale), while the range for the line inputs is huge.  The way this plays out is that using my AKG 391's, which are phantom powered and put out a max of like -1 dBv (I think), they brickwall the mic preamp if I use mic in, but they are too soft to fill the sonic range of the line in.  So, I have to use attenuators to reduce the energy going to the preamp and use the mic-in, which is not ideal.  The alternative is to use a mic preamp to boost the signal to a line level and use line-in (adding another piece of gear and additional bulk...sigh...)

The problem is that most prosumer recorders make the following compromise - electrecet mics are cheaper and smaller and can be powered by 5v.  So, they build their mic-in voltage limits around their output, and provide 5v powering.  The electrecet mics put out MUCH less energy than condenser mics, so when you try to use condenser mics and their phantom powering, you brickwall the mic preamp inputs.  My guess is that if a recorder doesn't provide phantom power from the mic inputs, this will be the case.  Interestingly, the MicroTrak 24/96, which does provide (quasi) phantom power, easily accepts the inputs from condensor mics.  The flip side is that few (if any?) condenser mics are capable of true professional line levels without some form of amplification - this means an external mic pre.  The alternative is a relatively faint signal that doesn't take advantage of the full dynamic range of the recording device. 

It just so happens Sonic Studio did a nice write-up on the TCD-100 / PCM-M1 here where they discuss the inputs.

http://www.sonicstudios.com/d100page3.html

Good luck, I hope this helps!!

Mike

[nameloc01]

i run the exact same thing (u853>nady adapters>denecke ps-2) into a mz-m100 hi-md. i always run line in, the mic in is very easily overpowered and i have gotten a few brickwalled pulls that way.

Thank you very much for sharing your info.  But even though I set 10, the max on the recording level on my DAT for the loud rock show,  the level meter did not reach the half of the max.  So I asked Chris at SP and got a reply from him as follows;

When you have the mics changed to work with phantom power, the sensitivity of the mics is lowered, which is necessary so that they can handle louder sounds. Because of this, you will need to use the mic input in all but extremely loud situations.

Next week I will tape a loud rock show.  Maybe I will use the min input for a change and see how it will work out.

hmm...while i am sure your info is correct,i (personally) am not a gambling type and would just stick to what i know works for sure.if you have time maybe you should hit one show and try this method out,just to avoid finding out after an important show that it didnt work.

[MJ]

For example, my Korg MR-1 takes a nominal -39 dBv / maximum of -27 dBv on the mic input, but a nom -6 dbv / max of +6 dbv on the line in.  This means the range of energy for mic input is a tiny window (dBv is a logarithmic scale), while the range for the line inputs is huge.  The way this plays out is that using my AKG 391's, which are phantom powered and put out a max of like -1 dBv (I think), they brickwall the mic preamp if I use mic in, but they are too soft to fill the sonic range of the line in.  So, I have to use attenuators to reduce the energy going to the preamp and use the mic-in, which is not ideal.  The alternative is to use a mic preamp to boost the signal to a line level and use line-in (adding another piece of gear and additional bulk...sigh...)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Good luck, I hope this helps!!
Mike

Hi Mike
Thank you very much for a great reply.  I really appreciate you for taking up your time explaining it to me.  I read your post and Sonic Studio page very carefully, and sigh......  TCD-D100 features a microphone attenuator but does not seem to make much difference. 

The voltage gain difference between Line and 20 dB MIC input setting is about 17 dBv less gain when in the Line position (Sonic Studio). 

I don’t know what would happen but I will try to use the MIC input at least for next show.

By the way I am about to buy a MR1….Maybe I have to think about once more what would be the best recorder for my rigs.

Koichi

[MJ]

hmm...while i am sure your info is correct,i (personally) am not a gambling type and would just stick to what i know works for sure.if you have time maybe you should hit one show and try this method out,just to avoid finding out after an important show that it didnt work.

I am not a gambler.  I will bring another stealth rig to secure the recording….So I will use following rigs

 CMC-4>Denecke PS2>TCD-D100 (Mic-input)
 CMC-8>CT-9100>TCD-D8(Line-input)

I will post here the result of the show

Koichi

[MJ]

Tonight I taped Queensryche, a metal band using the following gears from 10th row in the center block at the venue that has the excellent sound system. 

CMC-4>Denecke PS2>TCD-D100 (Mic-input : Rec Level 5)
CMC-8>CT-9100>TCD-D8(Line-input: Rec Level

This is probably the loudest show I’ve ever experienced.  I saw a couple of girls covering their ears in the middle of a couple of songs.  The music was a bit overloaded on both recordings.  Even Malmsteen was that loud.  I will give another try to both gears one last time this week for more moderate sound shows.  Then I decide what to do with PS2.

Sound Sample (No EQ / No Normalization): Phantom Power(PS2) Mic Input
http://www.sendspace.com/file/l0a467

Sound Sample (No EQ / No Normalization): : CT9100 Line Input
http://www.sendspace.com/file/hge8q5

Koichi