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Author Topic: Blumlein question  (Read 5687 times)

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Offline Corbin

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Blumlein question
« on: July 03, 2007, 09:48:40 PM »
I have an LSD2 and am looking forward to using Blumlein at an upcoming outdoor festival...
http://www.evolvefestival.com/lineup.php

From what I understand Blumlein sounds best when you're at a short distance from the sound source.  So I guess I'm asking how close do I have to be to use Blumlein and get good results?

I'm asking because this past weekend, I taped Wintersleep.  Some f***nut walked in between my stand and a bar railing (there was like 18 inches of space) and got his foot tangled up in my XLR cable.  This all happened while I was at the washroom so my girlfriend had to deal with it.  Anyways, I've lost some confidence in running DFC up close and just hoping for the best.  I don't really want to run my rig in the crowd if I don't have to.

Thanks for the help!

A

Offline eric.B

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Re: Blumlein question
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2007, 10:03:22 PM »
just set up in the "impact zone"     ;D
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Offline ShawnF

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Re: Blumlein question
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2007, 10:33:40 PM »
I'm not sure about the "right" answer to this, but personally I probably wouldn't consider that pattern unless I'm at stage lip or pretty close to it.  If I were in the crowd at all I probably would opt for something else--remember that you're getting the rear lobes, too, so if there's a lot of noise directly behind the mics . . .  On the other hand, you can't be so close that you can't fit the entire soundstage in the front 90-degree angle between the front lobes of the mics.  If you have sound sources more than 45 degrees off to either side, you're going to have phasing problems.  I think the pattern sounds good in the right situation, but there are a lot of not-right situations, IMO.

Offline TNJazz

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Re: Blumlein question
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2007, 12:34:31 AM »
IMO stage lip is too close for blumlein.  you need to be able to capture the whole soundstage and unless it's a tiny stage and everyone's in the middle it won't have the desired effect.

I try to allow at least 10 feet for starters; maybe more depending on the width of the stage.
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Offline bobbygeeWOW

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Re: Blumlein question
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2007, 01:42:06 AM »
fwiw, I really like blumlein outside. :)
each cap pointing just outside a PA speaker on either side of the stage.

Offline beanstalk

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Re: Blumlein question
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2007, 02:06:37 AM »
I've heard great tapes from far back, onstage, FOB using it... Also shitty ones from all those locations.. Outside is always a plus though!
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Offline DSatz

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Re: Blumlein question
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2007, 08:40:11 AM »
Corbin, in a number of respects Blumlein stereo is a nearly ideal recording method, but in terms of the situations in which it can be used to best advantage, it's not a "universal" approach. You mentioned miking distance--let's look at what that issue means to a Blumlein setup.

One obvious effect which is true for every type of indoor setup, is that the farther you place the microphones from the sound sources, the less clear the recording will be. Sometimes reverberation sounds very good and sometimes it stinks; anything in between is possible, too, due to room acoustics. The type of music enters into it as well. It's a judgment call as I'm sure you know.

A second effect of miking distance is the effect on balance. When sound is coming from multiple places at once, the distance from those places to a central pair of microphones will vary. Sources at the center will be closest and therefore clearest, and to some extent also loudest. Some amount of this may be good or at least tolerable, but too much of it is definitely bad. You always have to back mikes off at least a certain distance so that they're not overwhelmed by whatever happens to be in the center.

In a Blumlein stereo recording you have two coincident figure-8 microphones. Each microphone has a front and a rear "lobe" of equal sensitivity and coverage angle, so with 90 degrees between the main axes of the mikes, there are four equal lobes evenly spaced around the microphone. But the front and rear lobes of each microphone are in opposite polarity from each other. So it is imperative not to pick up any direct sound in the rear lobes of either channel, since that will tend to cancel other direct sound that's being picked up in one or both of the front lobes and cause comb filtering effects. Good stereo imaging gives you another strong reason to avoid that situation.

The maximum angle that a Blumlein setup can cover, in terms of the angle which the stereo mike "sees" from itself to the farthest left direct sound source and to the farthest right direct sound source, is a total of 90 degrees, or 45 degrees each way from a forward-going center line. This is narrower than other stereo recording approaches give you, and unfortunately there's no possible way to increase it with figure-8s. You simply have to back off the mike until all direct sound sources fall into that 90-degree forward angle.

The thing is, since the front and back lobes of a figure-8 are equal in sensitivity, it is as sensitive to room sound coming from behind and to the side as it is to direct sound coming from in front. This is why a Blumlein pair needs to be set up fairly close in to the sound sources--to get an acceptably clear recording. Yet at the same time it has to be fairly far back if the sources of direct sound are spread any distance apart from each other.

These two practical requirements oppose each other, but are both absolute, and there are numerous situations in which no "happy medium" exists between them. As a result a person can't simply decide ahead of time that he feels like using Blumlein for a given recording without knowing whether the physical arrangement of the sound sources is going to work within the limits that the Blumlein approach has. In many situations there is no miking distance which encompasses all the direct sound sources within a total frontal angle of 90 degrees, but where that same distance allows a decently clear recording.

In those situations you either have to use a different microphone pattern such as supercardioid or cardioid, and/or give up making a coincident stereo recording. Unfortunately given the poor acoustics of so many performance venues and the simple logistical necessity of having the performers and other sound sources (e.g. amplifiers) spread wide apart on a stage, in my experience only a minority of performances can be successfully recorded with the Blumlein stereo method.

Nonetheless I would encourage you to look out for the situations which do allow it, because in the right acoustical setting, the naturalness of stereo imaging can be better with Blumlein than with any other known stereo recording method.

--best regards
« Last Edit: July 04, 2007, 08:42:17 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline Lil Kim Jong-Il

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Re: Blumlein question
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2007, 08:59:24 AM »
I ran blumlein for the first time last weekend.   I like the sound I got.  I was outside and about 60ft from the stage.  The rear lobes did capture ambient chatter but that isn't an issue during the music in my recording.   In between songs it just sounds like you are listening to a recording in a park.   I'm pretty sure I wouldn't run blumlein in a small crowded club but outside it made a nice tape.

As for the hassles of running up front, welcome to FOB taping.  Unless you bring a couple of buddies who are willing to help you, you have to stand guard the entire show, there's no beer runs and you might have to pee yourself but in the end it's worth it.  I pulled my share of decent section tapes but running up front changed my life for the better. 

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Offline vwmule

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Re: Blumlein question
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2007, 11:17:50 AM »
I've had very nice results outside. For example:

http://www.archive.org/details/rads2007-04-14.LSD2_blumlein_flac16


Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: Blumlein question
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2007, 02:01:44 PM »
I've had great success...or miserable failure.  seldom an in between.

imo, the "happy medium" is Mid-Side.
:)


Offline ShawnF

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Re: Blumlein question
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2007, 06:00:23 PM »
IMO stage lip is too close for blumlein.  you need to be able to capture the whole soundstage and unless it's a tiny stage and everyone's in the middle it won't have the desired effect.

I try to allow at least 10 feet for starters; maybe more depending on the width of the stage.
Apart from recording some choral and handbell groups, the few times I've been able to run that pattern (or have felt it would be desirable, I guess) have been in small bar situations, where the width of the stage hasn't been that great and there's going to be a bit of distance from the front of the crowd to the stage (so I can back off a bit and nobody's going to bump the stand), and always in combination with a sbd source for a matrix, as vocals are rarely great at stage lip regardless of the pattern.  I've never tried it outdoors at a large festival, so I should probably have said that upfront--it's just not a pattern that would suggest itself to me as being dependable for FOB.  DSatz comments make sense to me.  If others have had luck with it, though, that's great.  It just seems to me that, while all the stereo patterns were originally developed to record acoustically-produced music rather than recording PAs, this pattern is perhaps less-transferable to PA-taping than some of the others.  Not impossible, not necessarily bad, just more difficult to have the right conditions for a good experience.  Could just be a poor conception on my part, though, having not experimented with it enough in various situations.  Could also be that I'd rather run my MG200s in DIN or ORTF than my AT4050s in Blumlein, though!

Offline carlbeck

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Re: Blumlein question
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2007, 08:11:46 PM »
I will usually run Blumlein in the first 20 rows of a show with really good PA. I have run it indoors & out with great results. For me I make sure I get in the sweet spot no matter what so I can run it.
I know you like, tape for people's approval and stuff, and wave your tapes around like they're your dick...  but even you can't actually think section tapes from philips sound good.  



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Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: Blumlein question
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2007, 07:47:34 AM »
thats just the issue.  blumlein is not a forgiving pattern that will yield good results from less than ideal locations / acoustics.
it ain't no DIN.
:)

 

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