Topic: newbie with small budget, questions

[gazoombo]

Hello. My name is Mike, and I would like to get in to taping. In the past few years I've grown to love the local music community here in Michigan, and I'd like to start taping the shows I attend. Unfortunately, I am a college student and have very limited funds to devote to this hobby. What I would like to hear are some opinions about the best way to get started on the cheap.

I figure I can use the roughly 200-300 dollars I had saved for Lollapalooza for getting started. I'm not sure when I'd next be able to make another investment into equipment, but it would be nice if whatever money I spend to get started isn't wasted (like if I replace it all with something better). I have a 60GB iPod Color that runs Rockbox. I'm not sure if that is of any use here.

Any and all input is appreciated. 

[eclark]

wow, i didnt know the 60 gig ipods did rockbox. id like to see that in action. do you know if it records "lossless" formats such as WAV files? if so you might be in luck

edit to say welcome! 

[dean]

Send a PM to Chris Church here at Church-Audio

Chris can give you all the info and good gear you need to get started at a just a bit over your stated budget.  The gear will nearly hold its value and it's rock solid.  He's a stand up guy, to boot.   

[nasarius]

AFAIK, your iPod won't do you any good. It's unlikely they have an appropriate A/D circuit, regardless of the firmware you can install. You probably want to spend about $150 on an iRiver recorder.

If you're reasonably handy with a soldering iron, you can build yourself a pair of mics and a battery box for something like $25. See Linkwitz's schematics here, and search the forums for Chris Church's suggested 4.7K resistor mod. A modified pair of WM-61As sound surprisingly good, as long as you remember that they're omnis and position yourself accordingly.

If you're not that adventurous, Giant Squid sells something close to all that, very well-made, for about $90. I'm not aware of anyone else building the mics in that price range, and Darren knows what he's doing. There's also a cardioid package, which IMO is kinda crap. The sound samples on their website are accurate.

You might want to consider Sound Professionals, which sell a wide variety of packages, starting at probably a bit more than the Giant Squids. I can't comment on the quality of any of them, beyond what I've heard on others' recordings.

If you do want cardioids, you won't find much better than Church Audio. Getting the mics + preamp would probably stretch your budget a little, but maybe not too much.

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

I don't believe the Rockbox firmware adds recording to an iPod (only to MP3 players that were designed to record). It basically, just improves all of the features of a variety of MP3 players. If it is only a player, it is doubtful it will have an A>D on it, so there is no way to make it into a digital recorder.

I'd say go with a set of small mics (Sound Pros, Giant Squids, or Church), and the iRiver H120 with the Rockbox as a recorder. If you have any extra funds I would add a battery box.

For shows with open taping, and other tapers, I would just patch. So make sure you get a variety of cables that will allow you to do that (RCA > Mini would be the most important). Also this gives you the option to record from the soundboard, if the band allows it, and the board will give you a good mix.

Have fun. I'm just warning you now, that you will be spending more money on this hobby. Probably thousands of dollars!!

[gazoombo]

Thanks everyone for the quick responses.

Regarding the iPod, it does apparently have an A>D, because I have used Rockbox to record some things (to WAV) through the headphones. (Talking very loudly into the headphones.) What I'm not sure of is the quality of the ADC. (Since I don't have any mics to test it with, just headphones) I've never heard of anyone using an iPod for any serious recording, but maybe it's worth a try?

So, I'm leaning toward getting an iRiver H120 from Ebay, and maybe the st-9000 and cardioid package from Church Audio. What do I need to know about using these mics? Do they need to be angled a certain way or placed a certain distance from the sound source?

[dean]

So, I'm leaning toward getting an iRiver H120 from Ebay, and maybe the st-9000 and cardioid package from Church Audio. What do I need to know about using these mics? Do they need to be angled a certain way or placed a certain distance from the sound source?

You won't be disappointed.  At least not for awhile.  Then you'll get gear slutty and start spending $1000's of dollars, just like the rest of us suckers.  So, welcome to the club!           

Regarding "what do I need to know...angled...distance," etc., well, you've come to the right place.  First of all, Chris Church will tell you a whole lot about how to handle that.  Second, this website is entirely loaded with information on what you've queried.  It'd be pointless for me or anyone to answer, because the answers (and there's hardly a single right answer) are all to be found right here.  Start searching and reading - you'll have fun doing it!  Make sure you search on cardioid mics for those answers, but be open to much, much more...

[Church-Audio]

Hello. My name is Mike, and I would like to get in to taping. In the past few years I've grown to love the local music community here in Michigan, and I'd like to start taping the shows I attend. Unfortunately, I am a college student and have very limited funds to devote to this hobby. What I would like to hear are some opinions about the best way to get started on the cheap.

I figure I can use the roughly 200-300 dollars I had saved for Lollapalooza for getting started. I'm not sure when I'd next be able to make another investment into equipment, but it would be nice if whatever money I spend to get started isn't wasted (like if I replace it all with something better). I have a 60GB iPod Color that runs Rockbox. I'm not sure if that is of any use here.

Any and all input is appreciated. 

I would sell the ipod and get a Iriver... H120 You will be a happy man.

[gazoombo]

I like to do things the hard way I guess. If I can save some money by getting my iPod to work, I'd like to try. For one, it's not really worth selling my iPod; I wouldn't get too much for it. Secondly, I like a good challenge.

There are two ways to record using the iPod that I have (60 GB 4G Color, aka iPod Photo). One way is to use the left channel of the headphone jack to record mono. "The iPod has a built in preamp and supplies bias power (1.5V) through the headphone jack so a preamp and powered mic are not necessary."
The other option is to use the stereo line-in input found on the dock connector. "Unlike the headphone jack, the dock does not provide a bias power or a preamp so if you choose to record through the dock, you need to make sure you have these."

http://ipodlinux.org/Recording

Podzilla 2, part of the iPod Linux project, has implemented both of these methods. It is able to record 16-bit-depth WAV files at sampling rates of 8, 32, 44.1, 88.2, and 96kHz. Rockbox may also have the same functionality, but the documentation is not as easy to sift through.

It looks like I can buy dock connectors here:
http://home.swipnet.se/ridax/connector.htm

If all this monkey business doesn't get me anywhere, I'll get an iriver.

[OFOTD]

I like to do things the hard way I guess. If I can save some money by getting my iPod to work, I'd like to try. For one, it's not really worth selling my iPod; I wouldn't get too much for it. Secondly, I like a good challenge.

I think we'd all implore to to consider not using the ipod.  I know money is a big factor but the time spent trying to fit a square peg into a round hole is worth waiting a little bit and saving a few more pennies.   The suggestions that others have offered seem to fit into your expected budget especially with some of the components available on ebay or in our own yard sale.

Trying to get the ipod into a viable recorder with results that you'll want to spend the time listening back to has made many a new taper give the hobby up.    Listen to some of the great suggestions already posted here for you, talk to Chris Church about the products he offers.  Scour the yard sale here for good deals as they pop up all the time.  The time that you save by not forcing an ipod to work will mean more time for you to enjoy the fruits of your labor as well as get out to many more shows.

Good luck and remember we're all here to help you and keep you in this wonderful hobby.

[Digital Quality]

Keep your iPod, use it for what's it's designed for (handing over money to Apple for low grade music downloads). You'll just wind up killing the battery faster if you actually get it to work.

Another workable option would be to put together a patching rig. Save money and get better recordings, figure out how this hobby works for a while and check out different equipment along the way.

[tiberiusbkirk]

You'll get a lot more for that Ipod than you'd think. People still go crazy over them.
Chris gave you some good advise right there 

[gazoombo]

Keep your iPod, use it for what's it's designed for (handing over money to Apple for low grade music downloads). You'll just wind up killing the battery faster if you actually get it to work.

Point taken. I had nearly forgotten about the battery issue. Ok, I'll get my funds in order and buy some gear. The iriver really does sound nice.

[OFOTD]

Point taken. I had nearly forgotten about the battery issue. Ok, I'll get my funds in order and buy some gear. The iriver really does sound nice.

Great!   Remember that you can buy in pieces and don't have to blow the bank all at once.  Look for a recorder first.  Iriver, JB3 and many others are in the Yard Sale all the time at good prices.  Many folks here can help you with support on them.

As I said before talk to Chris Church when you can he makes a great product that many people have raved about his mic systems being an incredible deal for the money.   


EDIT TO ADD:  A GREAT price on a JB3 in the yard sale right now.   http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,86030.0/topicseen.html

[Church-Audio]

I like to do things the hard way I guess. If I can save some money by getting my iPod to work, I'd like to try. For one, it's not really worth selling my iPod; I wouldn't get too much for it. Secondly, I like a good challenge.

I think we'd all implore to to consider not using the ipod.  I know money is a big factor but the time spent trying to fit a square peg into a round hole is worth waiting a little bit and saving a few more pennies.   The suggestions that others have offered seem to fit into your expected budget especially with some of the components available on ebay or in our own yard sale.

Square peg into a round hole is exactly what your doing when you use an ipod for live recording there are many reasons why I agree with Dave here, number one where is the input gain control on the ipod?

Chris