Topic: mid-side recording help using sony soundforge

[Jimna]

i taped 2 sets this weekend using MS.   now i need to figure out how to mix it.  ive got sony sound forge 7.0 to do it with.  so which channel do i need to reverse the polarity?  and any other advise on how to render best results? 

thanks

jim

[grawk]

Most software has plugins available to do this for you, but what you do is take

Mid + Side for left and Mid - Side for Right (assuming you had the figure 8 "front" pointing left)

[Brian Skalinder]

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,4405.0/all.html
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,62470.0.html

[KLowe]

soundforge is hella easy to use.

process > pan/expand > Mid-side (set for desired width) and you are done.

mid = left channel
side = right

good luck.

KLowe

[BWolf]

^^^^

what he said

[Jimna]

thanks!!  you guys rock.  no doubt, soundforge is easy, like me.

[Jimna]

ok, so i mixed it in soundforge, and love the results(thanks KLowe).   i did however notice that the one channel is much louder than the other when its finished processing, and wonder if this because i didn't invert the polarity of the side channel?  the difference is obvious and even visible as i look at the wav's side by side.  so how do i invert he phase in soundforge?  and is this even why this is happening?  the idex in the help section isnt mentionign anything about side channel inversion, so i dont know what to think.

[bluevolvo]

ok, so i mixed it in soundforge, and love the results

i'm a little confused b/c you say you love the results but then go on as below.  does it sound good to you??

wonder if this because i didn't invert the polarity of the side channel?

if you didn't invert a side channel you ain't done yet - and yet to experience that total "love the results" warm fuzzy.

the difference is obvious and even visible as i look at the wav's side by side

sometimes with mid-side that's what you get if things aren't just right...like when a bass player gots his stage amp on fire and you get a little too much over the house from one side or the other.  or a funky band setup.  or mic position not quite right.  or you forgot to invert a channel 

Not familiar with Soundforge, but with AA2 (and it been awhile) if you have a channel mixer set it up like this:

(assuming you set it up standard where MID mic is L and SIDE was R - FIG 8 FACING LEFT)

MID = New Left Channel @ 100% L 0% R - New Right Channel @ 100% L 0% R
SIDE =  New Left Channel @ 0% L 100% R - New Right Channel @ 0% L 100% R AND CHECK INVERT

I usually set them up on different tracks/buses because it easier to adjust the stereo width over messing with all them individual channel % sliders - plus i get to see more level meters flashing

~peace

[Jimna]

ok, so i mixed it in soundforge, and love the results

i'm a little confused b/c you say you love the results but then go on as below.  does it sound good to you??

wonder if this because i didn't invert the polarity of the side channel?

if you didn't invert a side channel you ain't done yet - and yet to experience that total "love the results" warm fuzzy.

the difference is obvious and even visible as i look at the wav's side by side

sometimes with mid-side that's what you get if things aren't just right...like when a bass player gots his stage amp on fire and you get a little too much over the house from one side or the other.  or a funky band setup.  or mic position not quite right.  or you forgot to invert a channel 

Not familiar with Soundforge, but with AA2 (and it been awhile) if you have a channel mixer set it up like this:

(assuming you set it up standard where MID mic is L and SIDE was R - FIG 8 FACING LEFT)

MID = New Left Channel @ 100% L 0% R - New Right Channel @ 100% L 0% R
SIDE =  New Left Channel @ 0% L 100% R - New Right Channel @ 0% L 100% R AND CHECK INVERT

I usually set them up on different tracks/buses because it easier to adjust the stereo width over messing with all them individual channel % sliders - plus i get to see more level meters flashing

~peace

ok, i guess i was a little overjoyed by the results of my first MS recording. what i mean is after listening to the unmixed master i loved the results of mixing them.  sorry to seem blond, but i am.  

i guess the confusion for me is whether soundforge is inverting the channel as part of the plug-in or do i still need to do that before i use it(the plug-in)?  i did actually figure out how to invert the channel last night(but thanks for the confirmation i did it right), and then mixed it with the new side channel.  the difference in volume just moved from one side to the other, which didnt exactly tell me that the inversion was necessary.  oh and no audible difference other than volume.  so the question still lingers, do i need to invert the side channel when using soundforge, or does it do that when it processes the mid-side mix?
  ....KLowe?

[KLowe]

not really sure about inversion.

i always thought SF did it for me.

[Jimna]

not really sure about inversion.

i always thought SF did it for me.

well +t for the help anyway

[ghellquist]

Not sure about how sound forge does it, but after the MS conversion check for mono compatibility. Sum the output channels and compare the volume, if it is much lower you have one channel (after conversion) inverted. One way this can happen is if you by mistake switched places between the M and the S input channels, easy to do - result is that the channels are of different polarity.

Personally I use a small plugin in my DAW, MSED from Voxengo. It is free and it is tweakable, you can get just the right amount of stereo width. Just remember to set it to Decode.

Gunnar

[Jimna]

some follow up for anyone wondering in the future:

after a great deal of comparisons between 3 m-s recordings w/ and w/out inverting the side channel, ive decided to invert the channel then run the mix with the SF plug-in.  ive read everything i can find from sony SF, and at no point do they mention inversion at all.  ultimately i would say from what i hear the inverted channel is necessary.  thanks for the help again though.