Topic: CSB mic difference in outdoor/indoor venues?

[manitouman]

Hi there, first post but I need some advice. I have been running CSB<batt. box<Microtrack and my first three recordings I could have not been happier. Black Crowes/Robert Randolph @ Red Rocks 8-12-05 and TOOL @ Coors Amphitheater 8-30-05. Now mind you these are both outdoor venues. Then I recorded a bunch of shows that were indoors, some large venues-some smaller venues. But the recordings sound as if I'm in a phone booth. I usually record loud rock concerts in stealth mode.

Is it possible that the CSB's work much better in an outdoor venue as opposed to an indoor venue? I have a Chris Cornell recording done with Core Sound Stealthy Cardiods and the MT that sounds amazing and was recorded indoors. Should I have a set of mics for outdoors and another for indoors?

I will also like to upgrade my mics but I will post that in the Mic Forum, I kinda need help with that as well. But the homework I've been doing it sounds like Church-Audio's 9100 pre could be part of my new set-up.

Thanks for any help!
amaro

[Nick Graham]

Binaural Microphones are omni-directional, meaning they pick up sound equally from every direction.

Outdoors they'll naturally sound great, as there's no reflection of sound, and everything's open. Indoors on the other hand you'll get sound bouncing off the 3 walls beside and behind you, which can cause the "phone booth" effect you described. About the only way to remedy this and still use omni mics is to move closer to the sound source, either the PA or stage.

Cardiod mics are much more straight ahead directional, and don't pick up the surrounding sound like omnis.

[evilchris]

Nick's right.  I know a lot of guys who stealth CSBs and always stand a few feet from one of the speaker stacks.  They pull damn good tapes, but it's not as easy as a pair of stealthy cards near FOB/DFC, IMO.

[Church-Audio]

Hi there, first post but I need some advice. I have been running CSB<batt. box<Microtrack and my first three recordings I could have not been happier. Black Crowes/Robert Randolph @ Red Rocks 8-12-05 and TOOL @ Coors Amphitheater 8-30-05. Now mind you these are both outdoor venues. Then I recorded a bunch of shows that were indoors, some large venues-some smaller venues. But the recordings sound as if I'm in a phone booth. I usually record loud rock concerts in stealth mode.

Is it possible that the CSB's work much better in an outdoor venue as opposed to an indoor venue? I have a Chris Cornell recording done with Core Sound Stealthy Cardiods and the MT that sounds amazing and was recorded indoors. Should I have a set of mics for outdoors and another for indoors?

I will also like to upgrade my mics but I will post that in the Mic Forum, I kinda need help with that as well. But the homework I've been doing it sounds like Church-Audio's 9100 pre could be part of my new set-up.

Thanks for any help!
amaro

Omni mics are good when the room is good. The reason why you like them for outdoor shows is simple, in a outdoor show there are no acoustics... There is no room to make your recording sound like crap.. But one thing to remember omni mics need one of two things in order to function properly ( space or separation ) or a boundary between the two mics in a stereo pair so that you get the separation you need.

Omni mics tend to be harder to get to sound "right" through speakers.. But tend to sound amazing through headphones when using a stereo pair of omni mics. There are always exceptions to every rule but for me

If your in a venue where you can get close to the action use omni mics... If your in a venue where you are further back use cardioid mics that are "aimed" at the sound source.

Chris

[manitouman]

When I recorded the Crowes in '05 I was 5th row in front of the right stack. For TOOL in '05 I was 13th row right in front of the right stack. So I see what you are saying about getting in close. Some indoor shows I have recorded such as in the Fillmore-Denver (capacity 4500, or so) I've usually positioned myself to the right of the stage but up in the seating area. I'm usually about 25-30 feet in front of the right stacks. So because of the indoor venue that really makes a difference.

Wow, I should have come here back in 2003 when I first got my MD recorder and just on a whim bought the CSB. All this time taping shows that I have to adjust the volume or at least bring up because they sounded really distant. Clear sounding but really distant. So if I burned a show to CD, I would really have to turn up the volume to hear it.

Thank you very much for the info, at least now I can have a better understanding of what I need to upgrade to. And sorry for the dumb question but what is FOB/DFC? Dead Front Center?

Again thanks for the help.
amaro

[Liquid Drum]

Have you got any samples at all??

I'm in the same situation in a small way... I just got myself some CSB and I have 3 shows coming up where I have front row 'balcony' seats. I was gonna use my CSB, but after your post I'm now unsure once again.

Thing is, I've heard some really great recordings from CSB mics where the taper has not been tight on the stacks. I guess its all down to the venue sound/acoustics.

Samples would be great if possible. 

[manitouman]

Sent you a couple of emails with samples in MP3 format, hope that helps. Not too much of difference except for volume. Did not mean to concern you, I'm just looking to upgrade and had questions about the whole binaural vs. cardioid thing.

amaro

[Nick Graham]

And sorry for the dumb question but what is FOB/DFC? Dead Front Center?

FOB: Front Of Board - in front of the mixing desk
DFC: Dead F*cking Center

[travelinbeat]

And sorry for the dumb question but what is FOB/DFC? Dead Front Center?

FOB: Front Of Board - in front of the mixing desk
DFC: Dead F*cking Center

+t's for both of ya, I've wondered the same thing =)

[Liquid Drum]

Sent you a couple of emails with samples in MP3 format, hope that helps. Not too much of difference except for volume. Did not mean to concern you, I'm just looking to upgrade and had questions about the whole binaural vs. cardioid thing.

amaro

Thanks for the samples. Both sound very good, the indoor one just needs some low-end taking off and a volume boost for it to sound better and a tad brighter imo.

+t

[evilchris]

And sorry for the dumb question but what is FOB/DFC?

Front for board, dead fuckin' center.   

[Brian Skalinder]

A couple considerations when seeing sources noted as FOB, DFC, or both:

• best sound isn't always FOB and/or DFC
• FOB isn't very descriptive (for example, in some venues the entire audience area is FOB...which doesn't help much)
• I've seen some tapers claim DFC when they're no where near center

Some time ago, in my mind FOB (and to a lesser degree DFC) turned into less a descriptor of the actual recording location and more of a catch-phrase to ensure lots of people would download one's recording on eTree.  Not saying everyone's lying through their teeth about their location, simply that it's something to take with a grain of salt.

[tapeheadtoo]

Yes sometimes it does need to be taken with a grain of salt.  In the interest of full disclosure I will often be more specific in noting my location, e.g. "10th row, 3 seats off center" or "15th row, 10' LOC" (10 feet left of center). These days it seems "FOB DFC" can mean anything.

[manitouman]

Because I never knew what FOB meant whenever traded any recordings of mine I would just say row 5 in front of the right stacks. Or in measurement of feet from the stage.

Thanks for the quick education concerning binaural vs. cardioid. It has really made a difference in selection of an upgrade for my mics.

Keep up the good work!

amaro

[j.mart]

omni's + outdoors = goodness... many people think otherwise, for some reason. just get a bit closer than FOB to stage and you're good