Topic: Question for band archivists out there.

[china_rider]

Hey all... I've recently been asked to be an archivist for 2 local bands that are looking to start playing nationally.  For all you already doing it I'm sure you would already be doing this.  So what they have asked is that I tape and archive local shows and arrange tapers for out of state shows if possible.  On top of that they want me to keep an archive of any show copies that are recorded.

So with my current personal system I back up each show I record on DVD and also have a 4TB RAID buffalo terrastation.  So for at least the next year or so I would have enough space with RAID safety to back up their shows along with others that I tape.

My question is for the band archivists out there.  What have you asked of the bands when you first started with them.  My backup system cost a pretty penny and works perfectly for me but I'm not sure I want to open up the recording and maintenance for others just because I have some free space.  If I go down that line the 4TB will eventually fill up and I'll be stuck buying another RAID server.  So what conditions do you have with the bands you archive?

Stay Kind,
Dana

[F.O.Bean]

Hey all... I've recently been asked to be an archivist for 2 local bands that are looking to start playing nationally.  For all you already doing it I'm sure you would already be doing this.  So what they have asked is that I tape and archive local shows and arrange tapers for out of state shows if possible.  On top of that they want me to keep an archive of any show copies that are recorded.

So with my current personal system I back up each show I record on DVD and also have a 4TB RAID buffalo terrastation.  So for at least the next year or so I would have enough space with RAID safety to back up their shows along with others that I tape.

My question is for the band archivists out there.  What have you asked of the bands when you first started with them.  My backup system cost a pretty penny and works perfectly for me but I'm not sure I want to open up the recording and maintenance for others just because I have some free space.  If I go down that line the 4TB will eventually fill up and I'll be stuck buying another RAID server.  So what conditions do you have with the bands you archive?

Stay Kind,
Dana

Just backup everything to quality DVD-R's and be done with it. Thats all I do. For shows I record tho, I have 4 copies.

1. 24/48 WAVS untracked burned as data onto a DVD-R(Unedited+Edited(Gain Added) WAVS)
2. 24/48 FLACS untracked burned as data onto a DVD-R(Unedited+Edited(Gain Added) WAVS)
3. 24/48 FLACS tracked burned as data onto a DVD-R(Edited/Gain Added)
4. 16/44.1 FLACS tracked burned as data onto a DVD-R(Edited/Gain Added)

Seems redundant, but with the cheap cost of quality Verbatim DVD-R's at Sam's Club, I dont see why I wouldnt burn 4 copies, and I feel safer doing it this way I can usually fit a 2 set show in 24/48 WAVS onto a DVD-R with the unedited WAVS and the edited WAVS(gain added) onto ONE DVD-R

[china_rider]

That was my original theory.... But some of my Sony and Fuji DVDr that are 5-6 years old are getting CRC errors as the disks decompose.  A good portion of the Kodak Gold that I used 10-12 years ago are hard to recover.  I'm convinced that the claim of 100 years of storage is no where near accurate.  Once those started going bad after a few years I decided the best way was to store to a raid array.  So far I'm really happy with it.  Other than redundant storage they have media servers where you can access any of your files/media through a standard www browser.  Very nice when I am traveling.  So my current main backup is the raid array and then I make one copy to DVD just to be safe.  I usually keep those at a friends house so in case of fire or whatever both copies are not gone.

My main question was how does anyone here that is a archivist for a band handle this?  It can become quite expensive if everything is paid out of your own pocket.

Also with the RAID array I really like the idea of all the shows being available almost in jukebox style.  No finding DVDs and loading them.  Right now I have 3 bookshelves of shows that are a bitch to keep organized. The RAID array is much easier and if I look over the years of what I had paid for backup media it's much more than the RAID server was.

[F.O.Bean]

That was my original theory.... But some of my Sony and Fuji DVDr that are 5-6 years old are getting CRC errors as the disks decompose.  A good portion of the Kodak Gold that I used 10-12 years ago are hard to recover.  I'm convinced that the claim of 100 years of storage is no where near accurate.  Once those started going bad after a few years I decided the best way was to store to a raid array.  So far I'm really happy with it.  Other than redundant storage they have media servers where you can access any of your files/media through a standard www browser.  Very nice when I am traveling.  So my current main backup is the raid array and then I make one copy to DVD just to be safe.  I usually keep those at a friends house so in case of fire or whatever both copies are not gone.

I would also suggest getting them on the LMA and uploading both the tracked 24-bit flacs and the tracked 16-bit flacs, that way they are on another server

Thats a total bummer about the DVD-R's youve had trouble with. So far, the Verbatim CD-R's and DVD-R's I have bought at Sam's Club have treated me well, but none of them are 6 years old just yet. Theyre going on about 4-5 years tho(the CD-R's are anyway). I would love to have a 4TB Raid setup, but I dont have that kind of ching($$).

BTW, if you dont mind me asking, how much is a RAID 0/1 setup thats 4TB big And what about the ones you mentioned that can be accessed from anywhere online

I would honestly need such a huge RAID setup that there is simply no way I could even imagine affording it anytime soon. I would imagine I could prolly fill up 2-3TB at least just with the Phish I have. I would honestly need about a 20TB RAID setup just to start off and put all of my Phish/moe and everything I have recorded the last 10 years

BUT, its def the way to go

One question tho Dana, when you say you have a 4TB RAID setup, is that 4TB of storage? Or does that mean you have (2) 2TB RAID setups and only 2TB of actual storage for use since they have to be mirrored

[china_rider]

That was my original theory.... But some of my Sony and Fuji DVDr that are 5-6 years old are getting CRC errors as the disks decompose.  A good portion of the Kodak Gold that I used 10-12 years ago are hard to recover.  I'm convinced that the claim of 100 years of storage is no where near accurate.  Once those started going bad after a few years I decided the best way was to store to a raid array.  So far I'm really happy with it.  Other than redundant storage they have media servers where you can access any of your files/media through a standard www browser.  Very nice when I am traveling.  So my current main backup is the raid array and then I make one copy to DVD just to be safe.  I usually keep those at a friends house so in case of fire or whatever both copies are not gone.

I would also suggest getting them on the LMA and uploading both the tracked 24-bit flacs and the tracked 16-bit flacs, that way they are on another server

Thats a total bummer about the DVD-R's youve had trouble with. So far, the Verbatim CD-R's and DVD-R's I have bought at Sam's Club have treated me well, but none of them are 6 years old just yet. Theyre going on about 4-5 years tho(the CD-R's are anyway). I would love to have a 4TB Raid setup, but I dont have that kind of ching($$).

BTW, if you dont mind me asking, how much is a RAID 0/1 setup thats 4TB big And what about the ones you mentioned that can be accessed from anywhere online

I would honestly need such a huge RAID setup that there is simply no way I could even imagine affording it anytime soon. I would imagine I could prolly fill up 2-3TB at least just with the Phish I have. I would honestly need about a 20TB RAID setup just to start off and put all of my Phish/moe and everything I have recorded the last 10 years

BUT, its def the way to go

One question tho Dana, when you say you have a 4TB RAID setup, is that 4TB of storage? Or does that mean you have (2) 2TB RAID setups and only 2TB of actual storage for use since they have to be mirrored

Hey now... Yep... it is 4TB of actual RAID storage.  You can link multiple ones together depending on what model you get. However, the ones you can link together don't have the media server functions.

If I look back on it and the RAID storage was easily available when I started storing shows the cost of CDRs/DVDRs would have covered the cost of the RAID server today.  I only store to RAID my own recordings.  Others that I have downloaded stay on DVDR.

Here is a link to the model that I have:
http://www.buffalotech.com/products/network-storage/terastation/

The 4TB is listed at a price of $1800 on the buffalo site.... I found it on sale online for $800.

If you need more you could build your own raid machines... Just pick up a pc case that holds alot of drives and a mother board that supports RAID.  You could build a huge storage farm.  Thats the way I originally went but then found the terastation that is quiet/fanless/ and media enabled.

[stevetoney]

I'm not a band archivist, but those that I have known never got paid a dime for their efforts.  They just did it because they wanted to.  Whilst I have no idea of the situation that you have been asked to support, I have the feeling that the following happens in many situations...

1) A band asks a specific person to be their archivist because that person knows WTF they are doing.

2) Since a band is in the business to make music, they probably have no clue what it takes to do the best job of archiving and what it might cost.

3) Since these bands are obviously just starting out, they probably don't have a lot of extra scratch to pay someone to do this.

4) Since you take this stuff seriously, you wouldn't want to do a half-assed job...meaning that you probably wouldn't want to compromise on doing the job in the best manner you know possible.

So...having said all this, I would be willing to bet that both of these bands just want someone to coordinate and collect their recordings without paying anything.  If that's the case, I'd just stick with the DVDR + Live Music Archive method and every couple years or so, send all of the DVDs to the band and let them know that if they don't spend some money to back them up, they could be lost forever.  

IOW, put the onus back on the band to invest the $$ for the long term storage option, when the time comes to make that decision.

Actaully, a good thought is that you might present several options to both of these bands.  First option would be to present to them the 'Do It Right the First Time Option' and lay out what it's gonna cost them, including what you're willing to do for free.  Second option would be something in between, that has some cost involved and represents a good plan, but with less cash layout on the part of the band.  Third option would be what you'd be willing to do for free without any cost going to the band.  

My experience is that nine outta ten bands starting out are gonna pick option three because they have no money.  That's why Live Music Archive is such a great concept and has been such a popular site with alot of bands.

[Jhurlbs81]

^ What he said

[china_rider]

Thanks for the input.... I'm heading out to one of their shows Friday night and meeting up with them first to get a better idea of what they are expecting and give them an idea of what I am willing to do.  Currently they both hook up a DAT to the SBD for all their shows.  They have got copies of some of my recordings in the past and I recently pulled a few matrix recordings for them and they pretty much went apeshit over the quality vs their usual SBD.  They are also talking about me mastering different demo and sampler disks once we get enough material.

Luckily they don't play tons of shows so it sounds like overall effort on my part what be somewhat minimal.  The only real issue is getting out for the weekday shows when I have to work the next day.  It's also a plus that I would be able to play with on stage mic placement alot more.  I was not actually thinking of asking for pay for the given tasks but they have brought up the possibility of a barter type situation.

I did talk to them a little about the internet archive and some other options and how I really only tape as a hobby.  But most of them are not internet/computer savvy and I got the feeling they were nodding their head in agreement without really understanding what was being talked about.

[Tim]

I'm not a band archivist, but those that I have known never got paid a dime for their efforts.  They just did it because they wanted to.  Whilst I have no idea of the situation that you have been asked to support, I have the feeling that the following happens in many situations...

1) A band asks a specific person to be their archivist because that person knows WTF they are doing.

2) Since a band is in the business to make music, they probably have no clue what it takes to do the best job of archiving and what it might cost.

3) Since these bands are obviously just starting out, they probably don't have a lot of extra scratch to pay someone to do this.

4) Since you take this stuff seriously, you wouldn't want to do a half-assed job...meaning that you probably wouldn't want to compromise on doing the job in the best manner you know possible.

So...having said all this, I would be willing to bet that both of these bands just want someone to coordinate and collect their recordings without paying anything.  If that's the case, I'd just stick with the DVDR + Live Music Archive method and every couple years or so, send all of the DVDs to the band and let them know that if they don't spend some money to back them up, they could be lost forever. 

IOW, put the onus back on the band to invest the $$ for the long term storage option, when the time comes to make that decision.

Actaully, a good thought is that you might present several options to both of these bands.  First option would be to present to them the 'Do It Right the First Time Option' and lay out what it's gonna cost them, including what you're willing to do for free.  Second option would be something in between, that has some cost involved and represents a good plan, but with less cash layout on the part of the band.  Third option would be what you'd be willing to do for free without any cost going to the band. 

My experience is that nine outta ten bands starting out are gonna pick option three because they have no money.  That's why Live Music Archive is such a great concept and has been such a popular site with alot of bands.

+T man, very good ideas in there

[rowjimmytour]

I upload to LMA
Burn DVD-R masters
DVD-R flac files and txt
store in cabinet file w/ plastic slip covers
easyjim would be a good guy to ask he does two bands in SD and I am surprised he hasn't chimed in.
Peace

[Nick Graham]

Speaking as an "archivist" - for what most of us do I don't really like that term, the guys in the Library of Congress are archivists, I'm the "official taper"- I wouldn't ask for money up front, that'll come eventually.

I back up everything multiple times (RAID array, FLAC DVDs, 24 Bit DVD-As, 16 bit audio CDs, copies to the band, and archive.org) and don't worry about it.

As far as compensation, there's other nice perks besides cash. Free beer, backstage passes + guestlist, onstage & board access, etc. I get a hundred bucks or so every so often, but put it right back into hard drives and burnable media. Plus if the band gets into a real touring situation, you may be asked to go on the road - and if you can I'd highly recommend it. I spent all last fall on tour with The Loft, and no amount of cash I made (and they gave me a little bit every night) was worth more than the experience and memories.

[easy jim]

Nick sums it up pretty well.  I only have a few things to add...

I do not use a RAID array.  To back up, I have a copy of the raw files and mastered flacs on both external HD and data DVDs, and then an extra copy on either data DVD or external HD of the FLACs and/or raw files living at another location (a responsible band member's house). 

It's been said that your data is not important if it is not stored in 3 different places.  I'll add that one of those back-ups should be in a different physical location in the event of fire/flood, etc.  LMA can be great for this, but only for final .flac files.

Make clear with the band at the outset who owns the masters.  Part of my arrangement with the bands I archive is that I individually retain ownership of my masters/master files (as the band's 'live recordist'), and I get a percentage out of anything used commercially that is produced from my work.  Anything that is not 'stellar' and potentially being considered for official release gets uploaded to the LMA.  Under such an agreement, the band understands that I am also making an investment in them and their future and feels that I am more "a part of the team." 

I also recommend coming to some agreement on the principle that you should be reimbursed for all duly accounted for expenses associated with your archiving.  You will be bringing your gear, experience, and time commitment to the table which is a very significant benefit to a band, and it is not unreasonable to request reimbursement, for instance, for a dedicated external HD for their stuff (for 2nd or 3rd back up, to be kept at one of their houses when not being filled by you), a spindle of blanks to burn them copies, gas money to travel to shows outside of the local area, etc.

It is also good to have a proper sit down with the band and management re: what authority you have to respresent/speak on behalf of/act for the band in the capacity you will fulfill for them.  Otherwise, it may be easy to get roped into other duties you do not want or, to the contrary, to not feel like you have sufficient authority to approach venue staff as 'band crew' vs. a 'fan.'

Weekday shows can be rough.  To avoid any hurt feelings or different expectations between the band and yourself, it is also a good idea to be clear at the outset that some shows are going to be too difficult for you to attend and they should be understanding of that and not expect you to sacrifice family, financial well-being, and (too much) sleep.

Along with the perks Nick mentions, there is also the offer that sometimes comes up from openers/venues/other bands to record them for pay.  Being in an 'official' position with the band you're working with gives you an additional level of credibility and respect with venues and other artists that opens up such opportunities that may not have generally been present.

[Nick Graham]

Otherwise, it may be easy to get roped into other duties you do not want or, to the contrary, to not feel like you have sufficient authority to approach venue staff as 'band crew' vs. a 'fan.'

Excellent point I forgot to address. This could also be looked at as a perk. When going into unknown venues, taping in an official capacity opens a lot more doors than just being a regular fan who tapes, i.e. asking for AC power, instructing tables and/or chairs to be moved, etc. Shit I'd never do at any other shows I'll do at Loft gigs because I can. Especially when you're actually touring. When the venue staff sees you getting off the same bus (and with the same "i've been on the road too damn long" look) as the band they tend to not question you. On the other hand, I've also been the de facto merch guy, stage security, tour manager, and so on....roles I didn't necessarily want but may come with the territory.

Just to clarify my above statements - it doesn't, however, give you the license to be a jerk. Quite the contrary, your actions reflect on the band A LOT more. One thing I've figured out, a smile and a friendly tone will get you a long way no matter where you are. It's pretty much universal.

[svenkid]

lol, I used to tape a local band called nucleus back in arcata for about 5 years, then they asked me to be their archivist. Most of my earlier shows were on dat, so I just kept the burnt cdrs. Then I got into the whole LMA thing. I posted sometims about tapers in other areas and offered free admission, etc., which I know easyjim does for k23 and delta nove, and cleantone does for the slip.

only bad part was that afer about a year of being an official archivist, they started to not really do it for me anymore, so...

but I did get to tour with them once, that was cool.

[easy jim]

Just to clarify my above statements - it doesn't, however, give you the license to be a jerk. Quite the contrary, your actions reflect on the band A LOT more. One thing I've figured out, a smile and a friendly tone will get you a long way no matter where you are. It's pretty much universal.

Another excellent point Nick.  I had a funny conversation with the guys from Delta Nove last weekend about what makes a venue sound guy 'good' vs. just 'OK' or downright 'terrible.'  Aside from a decent ear and basic knowledge of how to work the board, two critical factors came up that are IMO universal to getting along working in the biz...

1) a positive attitude  (Nothing sucks for a touring band more than immediate negativity from venue staff.  The contrary is also true.  No venue is going to treat a band well that acts like a bunch of jerks and a-holes, and they probably will not book you again.)

2) the ability to let things slide and roll with the punches (Production work, like a good performance, is a practice in improv.  Expect that some things will go wrong and be positive and creative about fixing them when they do, and you will gain friends and respect.  Bitch about how x or y sucks, or z never works, or start refusing to do something because it is not your way and you'll be shown the door...sooner than later.)