Topic: Running Omnis???

[Cheesecadet]

Hey all, I am in a pinch and going to a show soon that is outdoors.  I was planning on running omnis for the first time.  They would not be split...they will be n the same stand.

is this recommended for omnis?

I have heard that running omnis outdoors is ideal...but I am hoping to get some clarification on how to set them up and if a recording from the same stand would be better than just running cards?


Most importantly...can you get a good omnis recording without a baffle if they are on the same stand?

Any help here?

i tried the search bar but didn't find this exact info so i thought i'd ask all of you.

Thanks

Ryan

[Chuck]

I've had good luck with pointing them at the stacks with as little as 12" spacing and no baffle. My baffle recordings haven't been as good, but I'm going to keep experimenting, because I know that it's possible to make very good recordings with baffled omnis.

[Cheesecadet]

thanks for the reply.

I was thinking of trying the Healy Method - 17cm @ 180* for the first go 'round tomorrow morning.

I'm so used to using Cards that this just seems really odd to me, but I've been wanting to try something new for a while.

We'll see how it goes I guess... 

[KLowe]

I made a split omni rig that fits on one stand with PVC pipe and a single shock mount.
it is in 2 feet sections expandable to 6 ft.  Granted a 6 feet spread on a single stand looks really, really dorky.

here is a pic from earlier this year.  Split subcards for dumpstaphunk

[Gutbucket]

^^^^^^
What KLowe said.

I use a telescopic set-top TV antenna to space my lightweight 4060's off one stand in that same scenario and it works a charm.  I find approx. one meter spacing (~39") to be my sweet spot.  But you could make due with less (w/heavy mics).  IMO there's no need to go wider and risk a hole in the middle.  Too wide can make the bass weird to my ear, same goes for too narrow where the high-mids get phasey.. and bass can get sort of flat.  I've never tried more than 6' though.

and I agree with Chuck too, I don't like the baffle unless its up close (like on-stage distance).  Sounds muffled and too closely spaced at a distance to me, less bright and open like a great spaced omni recording. [edit]No offense J-disc'ers, I like a baffle up close.. and often I am the baffle.

[Gutbucket]

Hey KLowe, Do I see two rigs going here? a M/S center maybe?

[Cheesecadet]

So how do you think omnis @ 180* Spread about 18" (inches) would sound?

[jlykos]

I like a 3 - 4' spacing between my omnis.  Wider than that and I get a hole in the middle.  I usually set up my stand next to another taper's stand and try to clamp one mic off theirs; they usually say yes to that.  I have run at like a 12" spread before when I was the only taper at a show once and it still sounded nice, but did not have the separation of a wider spread.  Positioning is very important in this case; try to get as close to center as you possibly can.  Also, if you have the only stand, pointing the mics at the stacks is a good idea; you may want to try pointing at the outside of the stacks, but because they are omnis, it really doesn't matter all that much.

That PVC pipe in the picture looks like a good idea.  You also may want to contact Wayne off this board; he sometimes runs this Road Warrior like stand for his 4-mic mixes.  Baffle is not a great idea when you are far away, and I doubt it would be of much value anyway.

Good luck!

[china_rider]

I have not done this alot.... But enjoy my bigger mark bar for split omni recording.  It is solid and the bigger one puts several feet between the omnis.  You do need a beefy stand.  I also put another 'normal' 480 setup in the midde just in case.  Usually both sound good and all 4 sound great mixed together.

[Evil Taper]

To my ear omnis sound really "unnatural" if you're not close to the sound source.  Maybe they sound too "natural" that they lose their musicality but without proximity effect going on you just end up with this airy kind of thin feeling sound.  Really if you're far enough out from the source that you can start to hear any sort of ambient noise (cars, chatter, babies crying...) the omnis aren't going to catch all of that too.  Running the mics at 180 isn't going to do anything for omnis besides distancing the capsules since they have a spherical pickup pattern.  If you really wanted to you could point them towards the sun and it wouldn't matter. 

All of this talk about particular distances and measurements blah blah blah, just bring headphones and configure the mics in a way that sounds good to your ears.  Every show is going to have unique acoustics going on so you have to measure with your ears.  Not trying to be sassy it's just how it is. You can have all the formulas you want but you must always abide by the golden rule of recording, turd sound in = turd sound out.

[guysonic]

To my ear omnis sound really "unnatural" if you're not close to the sound source.  Maybe they sound too "natural" that they lose their musicality but without proximity effect going on you just end up with this airy kind of thin feeling sound.  Really if you're far enough out from the source that you can start to hear any sort of ambient noise (cars, chatter, babies crying...) the omnis aren't going to catch all of that too.  Running the mics at 180 isn't going to do anything for omnis besides distancing the capsules since they have a spherical pickup pattern.  If you really wanted to you could point them towards the sun and it wouldn't matter. 

All of this talk about particular distances and measurements blah blah blah, just bring headphones and configure the mics in a way that sounds good to your ears.  Every show is going to have unique acoustics going on so you have to measure with your ears.  Not trying to be sassy it's just how it is. You can have all the formulas you want but you must always abide by the golden rule of recording, turd sound in = turd sound out.

  For the sake of simplicity, it would be great if generalities hold enough truth to be useful in discussions like this, unfortunately in the real world there is little truth in such generalities.

    Unless tempered with conditional considerations, generalities tend to give misleading mis-information educating only the indiscriminate majority. 

   What IS true is NOT ALL OMNIS sound the same in the same situation for many reasons, and NOT ALL BAFFLES sound the same for many reasons in the same venue position.   

The reasons for this might fill a few volumes or simply be understood with saying the acoustics is different with each make of omni mic and baffle construction. 

Therefore, your results will vary all over the map from 'excellent to piss-poor' depending on which omni and what kind of baffle construction is being used independent of mic position within the venue. 
Now you've heard some real truth about omni's and baffles, but maybe not so useful or what you where hoping to hear. 

[bgalizio]

Try healy method. I've heard some very cool results with that config!

[barrettphisher]

I prefer to split them as wide as I possibly can.  At red rocks I like 12 to 15 feet splits.  You can really hear the stereo seperation.  Plus I feel like the omni's help cut down on the wind noise.  Way more of a natural sound to my ears.
Barrett

[KLowe]

Hey KLowe, Do I see two rigs going here? a M/S center maybe?

yeup.  M/S in the middle.  I  the M/S in the middle with flanked 43's. 
Running four channels is the best move I have made.  I "typically" dial in the M/S really tight mix with the subs.  Usually decrease the subs by -2db in the final mix b/c the tight (on axis) m/s has tons of detail.

Also...another reason I love 4 channels is if I screw up one set of mics then I have the other to salvage the recording..... as what happened at the echo project last weekend.  I Got to learn firsthand about brickwalling!!!  (yeah).  At least I "think" understand it now and have the M/S recording as the saviour.

[Evil Taper]

Even 3 mic Omnic-Card-Omni sounds really good in a lot of situations.  I haven't run that in the field but we've been using that in sessions for room sound with really good results.  Omnis are a strange beast...