Topic: Newbie starter Rig: R-09 or PMD-660?

[notsofast]

Like many others, I have recently decided to get back into recording after a long hiatus, the last shows I recorded were  the Grateful Dead with the new guy Brett.

I have been lurking and chatting with rowjimmy to gain knowledge on what gear to invest in for recording at the Mystic Theater. I have been listening to a lot of mics and gear combinations and I think I have settled on the mics but not sure on the recording device.

I am looking to spend $1500, will record bands like BTS, HBR (anyone that will let me basically) at the Mystic in Petaluma and other local bay area venues both indoor and outside.

I am looking to go with Peluso CEMC6 and add the Hyper caps. I love their sound, their presence and separation. I felt I should invest in the mics and am compromising on the recording device. Like so many others out there I lust for other high end Mic's but my budget (read wife) does not allow them just yet.

My questions is simple, do I go with the PMD-660 (Oade songcatcher mode) or the R-09 with a pre ? I would love the R-4 but again the darn budget thing.

I want to say thanks to all in advance and appreciate the support that is offered here. If I could I would give everyone a +T.

Tim

[Javier Cinakowski]

IMO, the Song Catcher mod.  IT would match PERFECTLY with the peluso hypers.  The convienience is hard to beat as well.  I ran the peluso's cards with the Song Catcher and loved the sound.  The hypers are a little thinner sounding than the cards, which is great because my recordings with the cards were slightly too warm...  There is a Dark Star Orchestra show on Archive I recorded with this combo.

You might want to look at the Oade Fostex box as well.  It is just like the 660, but does 24bit...

[bgalizio]

Excellent call on the Pelusos. I think they're quite good for the money. IMO, the Pelusos sound best with something on the warmer side. It helps bring out the midrange of the mics, which tends to be lacking on these mics with transparent pres.

There are a bunch of all-in-one options right now which, new or used, would be right in your price range. The Oade Fostex box (as mentioned by Fred), 660, etc. would all be excellent choices.

And happy to have you back into taping! Don't forget to leave budget room for cables, stand, bag, clamp, etc.

[dennisrtyler]

furtooli (FR2LE) modified by Oade or Busman

[Will_S]

I'd go with the 660 or FR2LE, no reason to go for the R09 unless you will sometimes be stealthing.

I think the FR2LE sounds pretty decent stock, might want to go that way and mod it later if you aren't satsifed.  There's a link to some BIN eBay auctions selling stock units for $480 in the eBay subforum. 

Or buy this (no affiliation): http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,93347.msg1243275.html#msg1243275

[stevetoney]

I've used all of three of the recorders being suggested here.  Your budget will allow for any of the three, so I'd have to also recommend the FR2LE.  It's got a GREAT set of features at a price point that almost matches the 660.  Some of the features are subtle, but when you add them all together they really end up making that box a head and shoulders winner over the 660.  Here are some off the top...

-24 bit

-volume controllable headphone output amplifier

-separate trim controls on each mic input, in addition to the master level control

-power options GALORE
     1. AC Jack
     2. a battery sled with 4 AA
     3. most people will use the 7.2V RC battery option...you can buy these batteries in hi capacity for $30 off ebay.

- On-off switch makes it virtually impossible to switch the unit off while recording...you have to flip the switch and hold for like a second in order to turn the unit off.

I'm sure there are others that I'm leaving out...but I'd definitely go with the Fostex. 

The R-09 would be good if you have a preamp already and if size was a consideration.

The 660 is a bit smaller than the Fostex, which can be a factor because the Fostex is on the verge of being just a little too big...but 16 bit vs 24 bit...gotta go with 24 bit.  If you haven't listened, then you just haven't heard.  It's MUCH better sounding, IMHO.

Good luck!

[stevetoney]

BTW, one more thing you should consider is how your Peluso's are gonna match up with the preamp of the unit you'll be getting.  Others are recommending getting either the 660 or the FR2LE modded through either Oade or Busman and I agree.  I've done alot of experimentation in the last year and I think it's really important to give this just consideration.  For example, you Peluso's have a pretty heavy bottom end to them, so I would tend towards a transparent modded box.  I'm not sure what the song catcher mod does to the sound, but if it adds any warmth then I'd think that might be overkill with the Peluso mics, but that's just me. 

Both Busman and Oade offer warm and transparent mods in both boxes...Oade has a stellar reputation and you can't go wrong with his products, but you'll save $$ with Busman and his mods are second to none.  Some folks on this list feel that Oade mods are better but I've owned some of the Oade/Busman mods on both the 660 and the FR2LE, and no matter what anybody on this list says, Chris's (Busman) mods are FANTASTIC sounding.  You just have to judge for yourself and do some listening on the archive...mods are just a little bit different sounding from box to box, but that doesn't make one better than the other.

[notsofast]

I am so grateful for all the insights and will take my next set of ears to listen to the decks. Being a bit head I appreciate all the benefits of 24 bit the FR2LE offers. I am certainly leaning that way now and I really appreciate the comments on the sonic capabilites.

The Mystic is a small venue that is noisy (crowd) and many recordings I hear the bass "booms" a non technical term. This will be the venue I record the most at and the advice on the mod's is very helpful.


Are there any pro or cons to the user interfaces and software that is included? One more user freindly than the other? Remember old school here, emphasis on "old".

This process is drawing to a close, I will be ordering the mic's tomorrow, A-B the decks with the mic's on the archive but I think I am heading to the FR2LE with the "transparent" mod. Although one thing that does appeal to me on the OADE mod's is I order, I get, I use. With Busman do I get, send it and get it back?

Only reason I ask is I have a string of great shows coming up and would love to just jump in and start recording and sharing with all you fine folks.

Again +T to all the responders and sharing their valued expertise.

Tim

[Kush]

The Mystic is a small venue that is noisy (crowd) and many recordings I hear the bass "booms" a non technical term.

Using the hyper caps will cut down on the crowd chatter and getting the mics up high in the air will soften the bass. My $0.02 but ymmv.

[rowjimmytour]

I am so grateful for all the insights and will take my next set of ears to listen to the decks. Being a bit head I appreciate all the benefits of 24 bit the FR2LE offers. I am certainly leaning that way now and I really appreciate the comments on the sonic capabilites.

The Mystic is a small venue that is noisy (crowd) and many recordings I hear the bass "booms" a non technical term. This will be the venue I record the most at and the advice on the mod's is very helpful.


Are there any pro or cons to the user interfaces and software that is included? One more user freindly than the other? Remember old school here, emphasis on "old".

This process is drawing to a close, I will be ordering the mic's tomorrow, A-B the decks with the mic's on the archive but I think I am heading to the FR2LE with the "transparent" mod. Although one thing that does appeal to me on the OADE mod's is I order, I get, I use. With Busman do I get, send it and get it back?

Only reason I ask is I have a string of great shows coming up and would love to just jump in and start recording and sharing with all you fine folks.

Again +T to all the responders and sharing their valued expertise.

Tim

Notsofast I am glad you finally posted(+t) and more important you got the ball rolling and are ready to order your mics. Sweet!!! I had the same problem when I ordered my R4 and decided w/ Oade and the t-mod so I got my R4 in time but I hifhly recommend busman and really liked his busman 2+ mod. As far as software goes you can use freeware like Audacity and edit your shows and be ready to upload and once you do it a few times you will have it wired. I also must add the benefit of the FR2LE and 24 bit is you can set your levels more conservative (peak at -6dB) and in post editing you have more bit/sample rates to work w/ and get it jsut right. Even though I don't have a home 24 bit playback system yet I am loving it.
Peace

[stevetoney]

I am so grateful for all the insights and will take my next set of ears to listen to the decks. Being a bit head I appreciate all the benefits of 24 bit the FR2LE offers. I am certainly leaning that way now and I really appreciate the comments on the sonic capabilites.

The Mystic is a small venue that is noisy (crowd) and many recordings I hear the bass "booms" a non technical term. This will be the venue I record the most at and the advice on the mod's is very helpful.

Yup, what he said.  Run hypers.  Also, if you have a choice of places to setup, walk around the venue when the backup band is playing and check out where the best sound is.  Most people assume it's right in front of the SBD and that's not a bad bet, but you never know.  The SBD might be in a location that, when the venue was designed, they didn't consider the best sound location of.  Anyhow, if a specific location sounds good to your ears, then it will sound good in your recording.  For me personally, the boomier the room, the closer I'd like to get to the source, but lots of places won't let you get too close because you'd be in the way.

Are there any pro or cons to the user interfaces and software that is included? One more user freindly than the other? Remember old school here, emphasis on "old".

No software involved with these things.  They're just recorders.  You'll need to go buy yourself a bigger CF card in order to record a whole show.  2gb is big enough for a whole show, but I'd get a 4 gb card or bigger if you buy the Fostex.  The 660 only will accept 4gb, none larger.  The Fostex goes as big as you want.  I used an 8gb with no problem.

I'd also spend $20 and get yourself a CF card reader.  You can connect the deck to upload the files onto your computer, but it takes a long time...like 30 - 40 minutes for a whole show.  The CF card reader only takes about 5 minutes.  I've worried that if something were to happen during the transfer during that 30 or 40 mintues (dog kicks the USB cable or something) that it might corrupt my file.  Probably wouldn't mess up the files on the CF card, but $20 is worth it to me just to keep from having to fire up the Fostex an extra time to offload the files.

You'll of course need your audio editing software...I use Audition along with CDWave for ensuring audio tracks get split correctly on sector boundaries.  If you don't know about how to do this, there's all kind of FAQ on this subject and all the software you need to have.

This process is drawing to a close, I will be ordering the mic's tomorrow, A-B the decks with the mic's on the archive but I think I am heading to the FR2LE with the "transparent" mod. Although one thing that does appeal to me on the OADE mod's is I order, I get, I use. With Busman do I get, send it and get it back?

Only reason I ask is I have a string of great shows coming up and would love to just jump in and start recording and sharing with all you fine folks.

Again +T to all the responders and sharing their valued expertise.

Tim

The problem is that Oade doesn't have his units 'on the shelf', so even if you order tomorrow, it will still be something like 1 1/2 weeks before you get your box.  Otherwise, when I've ordered from Chris, he takes a week or two to turn things around.  I can't speak for him, but I think that if you have shows though, he would try to accomodate a special schedule IF he can fit it in.

One last thing is that you can always run a few shows of the Fostex without the mod.  See how you like the sound without any mod at all.  Course, if you are gonna do an Oade mod, you would have to buy the unmodded box directly from Oade in that case.  Doug only mods boxes purchased from him.  Busman mods boxes purchased from anywhere.

[stevetoney]

I also must add the benefit of the FR2LE and 24 bit is you can set your levels more conservative (peak at -6dB) and in post editing you have more bit/sample rates to work w/ and get it jsut right.

True that.  FWIW, I'm a recent 16 bit to 24 bit convert, so I should have mentioned this point too since it's fresh on my mind...but he's right.  To elaborate jsut a bit...it's really amazing the added headroom you get when you run 24 bit.  What's great too is that you get latitude on both ends.  On the high end, you have more headroom and can run in the red with greater latitude before clipping happens.  On the lower end, if you run your recordings too low, you can add volume in post and you won't have lost any apparent fidelity in the recording because of the bump.  I find that there's more you can do with the recording in post because, well obviously in a 24 bit file there's just more audio information.

[notsofast]

Thanks to all that have helped me along this journey. As an update the Peluso's with hyper caps are on the way.

I have found a new Busman moded Tascam HD-P2 for $899, very tempting. Or do I just go with the OADE or Busman FR-2LE (~$699)? I have listened to both decks with the mics and have not found I could hear a huge difference. I am looking for ease of use, durability and sound quality from the processors. Which of the two will deliver the perfomance I am looking for married to the Peluso's?

I am not concerned about having to be stealthy.

Again thanks for all the kind help,

Tim

[rowjimmytour]

I have never used either deck before but both decks can be moded by Oades and Busman so this is plus. The points I might decide on for the FR-2LE is the price first which would allow you extra cash for cables, power, stand, t-bar, and bag. The next thing would be size and how easy and compact it would be to pack all your gear and save ya a couple bucks on a smaller bag. Lugging around LD's in case, stand, and R4 in a nova 5 to shows is pretty bulky and I miss the daze w/ SD's and every thing packed inside a hard case. Just some thing to think about.
Peace

[NOLAfishwater]

I'd go with the 660 or FR2LE, no reason to go for the R09 unless you will sometimes be stealthing.

I think the FR2LE sounds pretty decent stock, might want to go that way and mod it later if you aren't satsifed.  There's a link to some BIN eBay auctions selling stock units for $480 in the eBay subforum. 

Or buy this (no affiliation): http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,93347.msg1243275.html#msg1243275

My Busman 660 is still available and the price has been lowered.