Topic: PCM D50 and mic questions

[rebop]

Hi folks,

New to the forums here, but not new to audio or taping. Have not taped since 1990, however, with SV 255 and Sony ECM 989 or board patches.

Just got my PCM D50. I think its a great device. Built-in mics seem better than some say here on the board, but they are still built-in. I'd like to add a stealth pair.

So, ideally, stealth, high quality, directly to mini plug and powered from the Plug-In Power from the Sony. Will DPA 4061's accept power this way? And are 4061's recommended above 4060's? If not workable without a supply, are there any other great stealth mics that will accept power from the D50?

Apppreciate your thoughts.

~Bob

[Javier Cinakowski]

You might want to look at the Sennheiser MKE2.  Microphone Madness makes a version that terminates into a mini-plug and works from plug-in-power. 

They sound amazing, just about DPA quality and are a fraction of the price...

[rebop]

Superb, thanks. Exactly the kind of replies I was hoping to hear :^)

And sorry for poting in the wrong forum folks.

~Bob

[Javier Cinakowski]

The Audio Technica 853 is another good option.  Sound Professionals makes a version that terminated in a mini-plug and runs from plug-in-power...

These don't sound as good as the mke2 or the DPA, but they have interchangable capsules with different directional patterns.  If you just need an omnidirectional stealth mic the mke2 and the dpa are both great choices...

Plenty of information here on the forum, check out the search option!

T+, welcome!

[guysonic]

Hi folks,

New to the forums here, but not new to audio or taping. Have not taped since 1990, however, with SV 255 and Sony ECM 989 or board patches.

Just got my PCM D50. I think its a great device. Built-in mics seem better than some say here on the board, but they are still built-in. I'd like to add a stealth pair.

So, ideally, stealth, high quality, directly to mini plug and powered from the Plug-In Power from the Sony. Will DPA 4061's accept power this way? And are 4061's recommended above 4060's? If not workable without a supply, are there any other great stealth mics that will accept power from the D50?

Apppreciate your thoughts.

~Bob

SONY D50 'plug-in-mic' power unloaded is 2.8 volts unloaded, and 1K ohm loaded to be ~0.5 volts.  This low voltage powering is perfect for only DSM stereo-surround type mics, and NOT optimum for any other that I know of.

See description of DSM mics at: www.sonicstudios.com/dsm.htm

And listen to a few of hundreds of sample music recordings made with this mic on my site at: www.sonicstudios.com/mp3_2slp.htm

[rebop]

Thanks. I did search, but did not come up with what I would have liked to see. Will try again.

But one more question:

The MM's in croakies are cardioid which surprised me. I would have thought omni. Their omni's are not croakied.

Which is recommended and why?

Thanks again.

~Bob

[Javier Cinakowski]

[edit] I disagree with guysonic.  There are plenty of mics that work just fine on typical low voltage plug-in-power.  Many mics can't handle high SPL's with such a low voltage, but there are modifications that can get around that (4.7k mod ect...)

The croakies are nice with cards becasue they keep the mics facing forward.  An omni can be pointing in any direction in practice.  The onmi's are smaller too and could be just clipped to the glasses discretely .

The cards a a better option if you can't tolerate crowd noise in you recordings.  They will cut down on chatter.  Omni's sound better and more natural, often a better choice for crowds that are well behaved and venues that sound good. 

[guysonic]

[edit] I disagree with guysonic.  There are plenty of mics that work just fine on typical low voltage plug-in-power.  Many mics can't handle high SPL's with such a low voltage, but there are modifications that can get around that (4.7k mod ect...)

----clip edit---

That's just the point, they are not optimized for low voltage powering without compromises, or needing modification of some sort.  This is NOT true of the DSM mics that offer FULL performance with powering like that on the Sony PCM-D50.  No modifications needed on mics or deck, or need for external powering module like those other mics mentioned.

[illconditioned]

[edit] I disagree with guysonic.  There are plenty of mics that work just fine on typical low voltage plug-in-power.  Many mics can't handle high SPL's with such a low voltage, but there are modifications that can get around that (4.7k mod ect...)

----clip edit---

That's just the point, they are not optimized for low voltage powering without compromises, or needing modification of some sort.  This is NOT true of the DSM mics that offer FULL performance with powering like that on the Sony PCM-D50.  No modifications needed on mics or deck, or need for external powering module like those other mics mentioned.

Senn MKE2 will work great from plug in power on the Edirol R09.  Put a 2.2k resistor between source of the FET and ground.  It works because there is 2.5V on the Edirol *and* there is a 2.2k load resistor inside the Edirol. You have to play with the values a bit, but most other mics (AT853, AT822 even) will work.

Minidisc is a bit harder.  There is 2.5V like the edirol, but there is a 6.8k load resistor inside.  This limits the range of voltage swing.

Yes, I have measured these values, and I've recorded plenty of shows on Pip on the Edirol.  (See soundmann.com).

Oops.  OK, Guysonic.  I just read your post.  You did measure the D50.  Great!  Let me do some computations and get back to you...

  Richard

[rebop]

Ok, after a lot of reading, I have decided on Sennheiser MKE-2's. Almost ready to pull the trigger from Microphone Madness, who has been great in replying to my emails, except for a couple of things. So I thought I would check if there were other options here first.

1. I'd really like the single mic cables to join as a single cable 12" or so from the capsule. Maybe , 18", but you get the idea. It seems the MM's are single cables all the way from the mic to the connector.

2. Right angle connector, which MM will do as an option.

3. SMALL battery pack with belt clip, removable cable with right angle and belt clip as well as selectable bottom roll-off. The MM has a captive cable, the small battery box has no accessible roll off. The "Mint" box is not quite what I would like.

So, with those desires, does anything come closer than the MM's? If not, That's how I will go. But thought it worth checking.

~Bob

[Will_S]

I would still recommend you do the 2.2k mod (or maybe MM will do it if you request it).  Without the 2.2k mod, the mics may not handle the SPLs MM claims, based on Chris Church's tests of their cardioid mics.  Of course you could always wait and get the mod done later only if you need it.

You could always buy the mics from MM but get a battery box from Chris Church or Sound Professionals.  Church Audio offers a really small BB:

http://cgi.ebay.com/STEREO-MICROPHONE-BATTERY-BOX-4-MINIDISC-MD-MP3-EDIROL_W0QQitemZ250198677272QQihZ015QQcategoryZ3281QQcmdZViewItem

Sound Professionals may offer some even smaller boxes that use nonstandard batteries.  Bass roll off isn't all that useful IMO, and needs to be specifically designed to match the input impedance of your recorder.

As to wanting a single cable for most of the run, just wrap electrical tape or use heat shrink tubing to bind the two cables together every 6" or so.

[rebop]

Thanks Will.

I think the MKE-2's and 2.2K would be perfect for me. I emailed Mike at MM to see if he would do this. If not, who else can do a clean mod?

~Bob

[Belexes]

Let us know if MM does that mod.  I have the MM's and may need that mod done. Thanks.

[rebop]

Just got email from Mike at MM. He seems to be unaware of the 2.2K mod, so I pointed him here to this and other topics that discuss it. We'll see if he is willing to do it.

~Bob

[rebop]

OK, Mike says he will do the mod. We have not talked price yet. I just wanted to check that there is some agreement that the MKE-2's with the 2.2K mod will work well witht the PCM-D50 without a battery box. If so, questions are:

1. Can I still use a batteyr box withthe 2.2K mod if I find I need it?

2. I assume the mod is at the connector side, so will it be reversable if I ever need?

Anything else I should know?

Thanks.

~Bob