Topic: My first recording with my PMD 620 ( not happy at all)

[Dede2002]

Hello everyone,

I really want to listen from you about what happened last Saturday night. Small crowded club, crappy acoustics, incredibly loud (really loud) average classic rock cover band. Anyway, it seemed to be a nice oportunity for me to get used with me new Marantz PMD 620 ( stealth, of course). the rest of the gear was the same: MMHLSC-1, SP bb, Line In.
First thing I noticed : the PMD 620 proved to be way less sensitive than my R-09. Taping in the very same venue, same band, same positioning, I used to set the Rec Level around 13/14 to achieve a -12bd to -6db peak. With the PMD 620, Rec Level had to be set around 22 ( out of 30).Strange,I thought to myself. Other thing, not that that is very important issue, I should say. I developed the hapit of listen to my recordings using headphones on my way back home after the concerts, just to have a first impression. With the PMD 620 the output is almost zero with headphones.
Anyway, here's the worst part. The recording came out with a very strange and scary noise. Sounds like when you listen to loud music using small, cheap headphones . Please, listen to the sample.
I really don't have a clue.
Thanks in advance

[amfortas2006]

Maybe you could also send something done with your r09 

[kbergend]

Strange, I used mine for the first time to record a quiet acoustic performance about a week ago and didn't have the gain anywhere near max to get to -6dB.  I have different mics though (AT943).  Are you sure you didn't have mic attenuation switched on?

I also listened to the same show with non-enclosed headphones driving home, and even with all the road noise it was clear as a bell with the volume control well below max.  No scary noises either, although the preamp/ADC have the limitations you'd expect in this price range and form factor.  There are some samples (mine and others) over in this thread:

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,91816.165.html

[aaronji]

Are you sure you didn't have mic attenuation switched on?

I was thinking this too, but I am under the impression that this is deactivated for line-in (see manual page 32, http://www.d-mpro.com/users/getdownload.asp?DownloadID=398). 

But I needed minimal gain from my pre-amp (Church ST-9100) to get peaks to -6 dB using Church STC-11's with the omni caps.  And, like kbergend, the headphone playback was crystal clear (and I was using some cheap Sony earbuds).  Perhaps not as loud as my MP3 player, but amply loud to hear while riding a train home from the show...

Maybe you just got a lemon (so to speak)?  Did you have a full charge on the battery in your battery box?  Maybe some pressure causing one of the plugs to move around?  Did you have any problems testing it out at home before taping this show?

[kbergend]

Are you sure you didn't have mic attenuation switched on?

I was thinking this too, but I am under the impression that this is deactivated for line-in (see manual page 32, http://www.d-mpro.com/users/getdownload.asp?DownloadID=398). 

Oops, sorry I missed that he was running line-in -- but then I wouldn't be surprised he'd need the gain pretty high without a pre, even at a loud show.

I've also had a couple of recordings turn out really crappy sounding due to a dying battery box, so I agree that's something that should be checked.  Or yeah, you may just have gotten a defective unit.

[Dede2002]

Thanks everyone.
Yes, Aaronji:the attenuation has no effect on Line In. No, no problems while testing the unit before taping this show. It's important to say that, yes, my microphone plug move around a bit when inserted on my bb. Same happens with the right angle (90 degree) plug that goes from the bb to the Line In input on my PMD 620. But at that particular night, both where stable, not moving or being pressured. Maybe I'll have to get another bb with a more tighter fitting plug.Even with the R-09, I had to use gaffer tape to prevent the plug to move around.
Like I said before, at very similar conditions, my R-09 was setting at 13/14, so I'm assuming the PMD620 is less sensitive running Line-In.
Anyway, I have a bad feeling on this case .
Thanks!

[HarpDoc]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but using a battery box only provides 9v plug-in-power, not any boost to the microphone signal that a preamp would provide. Therefore, you were running a mic-level signal into an input that expects a line-level signal. Thus, you had to crank the gain. Wouldn't you be better off running into mic-in since you're not using a preamp?

[Dede2002]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but using a battery box only provides 9v plug-in-power, not any boost to the microphone signal that a preamp would provide. Therefore, you were running a mic-level signal into an input that expects a line-level signal. Thus, you had to crank the gain. Wouldn't you be better off running into mic-in since you're not using a preamp?

For really loud concerts, there's no problem at all going Line In. Specially with MM HLSC-1s. Also, like I said before, I've been to several venues where I had to set my Rec Level at 10 (!!!!). Talk about loud music. By using such low Rec Levels, I'm pretty sure I can use Line In in really loud volume situation.
But again, I'm talking about my R-09 experience. In my first experience with the PMD 620, the story was very diferent.

[Arni99]

My 1st recording is yet to come. I´ll use my DPA4061(less sensitive than your HLSC) on MIC-IN at a 300 people club-show in February or March .
MIC-IN with -24dB attenuation and I´ll power my DPA with a 9V-bbox (SP-SPSB-6).Your sample sounds like there were bbox-issues with its plugs or cable-bending-caused "scratches" which I ran into myself some time ago.

[Dede2002]

My 1st recording is yet to come. I´ll use my DPA4061(less sensitive than your HLSC) on MIC-IN at a 300 people club-show in February or March .
MIC-IN with -24dB attenuation and I´ll power my DPA with a 9V-bbox (SP-SPSB-6).Your sample sounds like there were bbox-issues with its plugs or cable-bending-caused "scratches" which I ran into myself some time ago.

Thanks, Arni. I'll replace the battery for a fresh one, take a good look on my plugs and hope for the best.

[aaronji]

Hello everyone,

I really want to listen from you about what happened last Saturday night. Small crowded club, crappy acoustics, incredibly loud (really loud) average classic rock cover band. Anyway, it seemed to be a nice oportunity for me to get used with me new Marantz PMD 620 ( stealth, of course). the rest of the gear was the same: MMHLSC-1, SP bb, Line In.
First thing I noticed : the PMD 620 proved to be way less sensitive than my R-09. Taping in the very same venue, same band, same positioning, I used to set the Rec Level around 13/14 to achieve a -12bd to -6db peak. With the PMD 620, Rec Level had to be set around 22 ( out of 30).Strange,I thought to myself. Other thing, not that that is very important issue, I should say. I developed the hapit of listen to my recordings using headphones on my way back home after the concerts, just to have a first impression. With the PMD 620 the output is almost zero with headphones.
Anyway, here's the worst part. The recording came out with a very strange and scary noise. Sounds like when you listen to loud music using small, cheap headphones . Please, listen to the sample.
I really don't have a clue.
Thanks in advance

Hey Dede2002, I noticed that in this other thread (http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,97953.0.html), you mentioned that you thought the PMD620 pre sounded better than the R09.  I take it from that comment that you resolved the quoted problem with the Marantz?  Can I ask what was the source of the problem?  Just curious!

[Dede2002]

Hello everyone,

I really want to listen from you about what happened last Saturday night. Small crowded club, crappy acoustics, incredibly loud (really loud) average classic rock cover band. Anyway, it seemed to be a nice oportunity for me to get used with me new Marantz PMD 620 ( stealth, of course). the rest of the gear was the same: MMHLSC-1, SP bb, Line In.
First thing I noticed : the PMD 620 proved to be way less sensitive than my R-09. Taping in the very same venue, same band, same positioning, I used to set the Rec Level around 13/14 to achieve a -12bd to -6db peak. With the PMD 620, Rec Level had to be set around 22 ( out of 30).Strange,I thought to myself. Other thing, not that that is very important issue, I should say. I developed the hapit of listen to my recordings using headphones on my way back home after the concerts, just to have a first impression. With the PMD 620 the output is almost zero with headphones.
Anyway, here's the worst part. The recording came out with a very strange and scary noise. Sounds like when you listen to loud music using small, cheap headphones . Please, listen to the sample.
I really don't have a clue.
Thanks in advance

Hey Dede2002, I noticed that in this other thread (http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,97953.0.html), you mentioned that you thought the PMD620 pre sounded better than the R09.  I take it from that comment that you resolved the quoted problem with the Marantz?  Can I ask what was the source of the problem?  Just curious!

Sorry for not let you guys know about the last news. Yes, problem solved. A new 9 V battery ( and a new bb actually) and that was it. Thanks for the tip, Arni!  ;)No more problems.
Since my first post, I've taped two shows running Mic In. Why? I'll tell you that: if the show is not REALLY loud, don't bother run Line In. Mic In is the way to go. Last night I taped a loud electric blues band and had to switch to Mic In after the first song ended. I was like 15 feet from the stage, Rec Level at -9 db  ( out of -30 db) and still my levels were only peaking around -12db. I didn't want to push my internal pre that hard. My set up: Mic In, -24 db attenuation, Rec Level -17db. Sounds great to my ears. Yes, I can use more bass ( I'm a HLSC-1 user), but sounds smooth, clean and detailed. I love those mics. And I think they're an awesome match to to PMD-620.
Anyway, does anyone know anything about unity gain setting on the PMD-620?

Take care

[aaronji]

Sorry for not let you guys know about the last news. Yes, problem solved. A new 9 V battery ( and a new bb actually) and that was it. Thanks for the tip, Arni!  ;)No more problems.
Since my first post, I've taped two shows running Mic In. Why? I'll tell you that: if the show is not REALLY loud, don't bother run Line In. Mic In is the way to go. Last night I taped a loud electric blues band and had to switch to Mic In after the first song ended. I was like 15 feet from the stage, Rec Level at -9 db  ( out of -30 db) and still my levels were only peaking around -12db. I didn't want to push my internal pre that hard. My set up: Mic In, -24 db attenuation, Rec Level -17db. Sounds great to my ears. Yes, I can use more bass ( I'm a HLSC-1 user), but sounds smooth, clean and detailed. I love those mics. And I think they're an awesome match to to PMD-620.
Anyway, does anyone know anything about unity gain setting on the PMD-620?

Take care

Glad to hear it worked out! 

guysonic estimated the line-in unity setting to be -9dB.  I have been using that as a starting point, and it seems to work out well.  Not so sure about mic-in, though...

[Dede2002]

Sorry for not let you guys know about the last news. Yes, problem solved. A new 9 V battery ( and a new bb actually) and that was it. Thanks for the tip, Arni!  ;)No more problems.
Since my first post, I've taped two shows running Mic In. Why? I'll tell you that: if the show is not REALLY loud, don't bother run Line In. Mic In is the way to go. Last night I taped a loud electric blues band and had to switch to Mic In after the first song ended. I was like 15 feet from the stage, Rec Level at -9 db  ( out of -30 db) and still my levels were only peaking around -12db. I didn't want to push my internal pre that hard. My set up: Mic In, -24 db attenuation, Rec Level -17db. Sounds great to my ears. Yes, I can use more bass ( I'm a HLSC-1 user), but sounds smooth, clean and detailed. I love those mics. And I think they're an awesome match to to PMD-620.
Anyway, does anyone know anything about unity gain setting on the PMD-620?

Take care

Glad to hear it worked out! 

guysonic estimated the line-in unity setting to be -9dB.  I have been using that as a starting point, and it seems to work out well.  Not so sure about mic-in, though...

Really? So I wasn't push the internal pre, right? Actually I was using the Line In unity.
It's strange though. The R-09 display shows the Rec Level from 0 ( -30db)  to 30 (0 db) ( unity around 10 or something). With the PMD 620, the display shows the Rec Levels from -30 db to 0 db. OK it's the same, but it's kinda confusing at the first time you have to mess around with it. You have to think different not to make mistakes. Assuming that, the -9 db unity (PMD 620) would be like 21 on the R-09. Very different.
So, if I'm not going crazy, only when you set your levels above -9db you actually add gain, right? You only have 9 steps for gain and 21 for attenuation. Am I right?

[aaronji]

Really? So I wasn't push the internal pre, right? Actually I was using the Line In unity.
It's strange though. The R-09 display shows the Rec Level from 0 ( -30db)  to 30 (0 db) ( unity around 10 or something). With the PMD 620, the display shows the Rec Levels from -30 db to 0 db. OK it's the same, but it's kinda confusing at the first time you have to mess around with it. You have to think different not to make mistakes. Assuming that, the -9 db unity (PMD 620) would be like 21 on the R-09. Very different.
So, if I'm not going crazy, only when you set your levels above -9db you actually add gain, right? You only have 9 steps for gain and 21 for attenuation. Am I right?

Here is what he actually said.  As you can see, it is just a guestimate.  But he has taken one apart for a closer examination (there are pics somewhere on here), so maybe he has a better idea about this now...

Making assumption that full scale signal input is related to power supply rails of the recorder, and limited by those rails, and not having actual circuit diagram to verify actual rails, or having taken the deck apart to actually measure supply voltages with a meter (as yet), please consider the following a good guess.

With deck having 5 volt internal supply, assume maximum input to be ~+3-4dBu signal input.  620 set at -21 dB LINE input gain setting allows +16 dBu input for full VU reading, so assume setting LINE input gain 12 dB steps to - 9 dB is LINE mode unity gain setting.