Topic: R-09, iRiver HP120, and AT853 self noise comparisons

[SunWizard]

I just ran a series of tests to compare the gain and self noise of the stealthy combinations of my gear.  There has been several questions posted about this issue since its important for nature recording, so that got me curious.  Here is what I did, I played a 1000hz test tone, medium volume on my stereo and set the record levels the same on each to about -10db.  Then I walked over to the quietest room in the house and recorded for 20 seconds.  The AT-853 were clipped to my glasses since thats how I usually use them.  Then I transferred and played them back on my stereo at loud volume to listen for noise in the quiet room part of each.  Here was the results:

R-09 Internal mics     maxed the gain.                     Inaudible noise, except bad handling noise if handheld at that gain.
R-09 AT853 direct    maxed the gain, high setting.   Inaudible noise.
R-09 AT853 9v batt. 15/30 gain, high setting.         Inaudible noise. Very sensitive on the low end, I heard my heart beat when I cranked up gain!
HP120 AT853 direct    max gain.                           Couldn't get enough gain, and noisy, no good.
HP120 AT853 9v batt. max gain.                           Inaudible noise.

So the best for quiet recordings is the R-09 AT853 9v batt. combo since theres lots of extra gain, and it stays quiet except you start to hear your heartbeat   All the other combos I had to max the gain which means it may not be loud enough for quiet nature sounds without adding gain after transfer which could get noisy.

The iRiver AT853 9v batt combo surprised me with inaudible noise even at max gain since I had read some posts about how noisy it was, and also after I experienced how noisy it was with the AT853 direct into it.

[Brian Skalinder]

Any chance you're able and willing to post the recordings you made for each of the gear combinations listed?

[kuuan]

Thank you very much for your effort to compare the 'selfnoise', the quality of the gain and A/D of your gear.
To me, as a novice to recording, it is surprising that there is no 'sticky' at the top of the forums featuring such comparisons as I thought that how little self noise gear produces must be of outmost importance to the quality of resordings. But I must be wrong, maybe this is so becasue selfnoise doesn't really matter when recording loud music.

Your assessment

The iRiver AT853 9v batt combo surprised me with inaudible noise even at max gain since I had read some posts about how noisy it was, and also after I experienced how noisy it was with the AT853 direct into it.

really is surprising and very good news indeed.

Now I can't wait for my H120 to arrive to try out my AT822>iriver
However in the specs of the AT822, it says:

Warning: The AT822 is designed for battery operation only. Do not attempt to use when phantom power is present. Possible damage to the microphone may result.

hm..any way around? Would even 9 Volts harm the AT822? Has anybody tried out?

( As you know from the other thread I am most curious about the comparison of the A/D and preamp of the AD-20>iriver combo vs. R-09. Now you give me hope that the iriver with a battery box only, or if I can't use any with the AT822, an external preamp would be 'quiet' enough...that is if there is any small and inexpensive peamp available, or I can make one myself. If not the AD-20 would make more sense after all, or I'll change to the R-09 )

[SunWizard]

Now I can't wait for my H120 to arrive to try out my AT822>iriver
However in the specs of the AT822, it says:

Warning: The AT822 is designed for battery operation only. Do not attempt to use when phantom power is present. Possible damage to the microphone may result.

hm..any way around? Would even 9 Volts harm the AT822? Has anybody tried out?

( As you know from the other thread I am most curious about the comparison of the A/D and preamp of the AD-20>iriver combo vs. R-09. Now you give me hope that the iriver with a battery box only, or if I can't use any with the AT822, an external preamp would be 'quiet' enough...that is if there is any small and inexpensive peamp available, or I can make one myself. If not the AD-20 would make more sense after all, or I'll change to the R-09 )

Be careful with the AT822 into the iRiver, I can't find a switch in rockbox to turn off the plug power.  Does anyone here know if rockbox has a way to turn the plug power off?  If not you probably should not try the AT822 (and many other mics) direct into the iRiver.

I will work on posting some samples.  Although its kind of boring since they will just be quietness.

[petur]

Be careful with the AT822 into the iRiver, I can't find a switch in rockbox to turn off the plug power.  Does anyone here know if rockbox has a way to turn the plug power off?  If not you probably should not try the AT822 (and many other mics) direct into the iRiver.

The iriver always provides around 3.7V plug power on the line-in connector. Hardwired afaik.

[SunWizard]

Here are the sample files from the tests.  Each is about 5 seconds from the quiet room.  Remember these are at max volume in most cases,  you can hear my heartbeat and breathing in the ones with AT-853 and battery box if you crank them up.  I never knew these mics were sensitive enough on the low end to pick up my heartbeat by being about 1" from temples aimed forwards!  So its not representative of levels most tapers would use, but might be used for nature sounds, for example my footsteps or the creak of opening a door would light the peak light.  And I wasnt real scientific: didn't attempt to keep the wife and kids from making noise in the rest of the house, and didn't hold my breath, so the small variations between these are not solely the equipment.  I did attempt to set them to the same gain using a 1khz test tone.

R-09 Internal mics     http://www.xyzworks.com/R09_ints.WAV
R-09 AT853 direct    http://www.xyzworks.com/R09_853s.WAV
R-09 AT853 9v batt. http://www.xyzworks.com/R09_bb853s.WAV
HP120 AT853 9v batt. http://www.xyzworks.com/iriverbb853.wav

[SunWizard]

I just played these back on my other computer with bad speakers with bad sound card and there is noise with them.  So what you hear will depend on the quality of your soundcard, amp, and speakers.

[funkoff13]

I think the r09 is about +70dB of gain on the mic high gain, full trim.. So that is a lot.

I was hanging out with friends yesterday.. brought the r09 along in case there was a good opportunity to record their 2 year old son.  I ended up playing with the vintage fisher price record player a bit.. I was thinking heh, I'll post some samples to TS..  Then my friend's wife sat down with the boy and started singing twinkle little star (in a surprisingly good singing voice I have never heard).. Holy cow.. This is it.. I bolted into the next room to grab the r09, got it rolling (love the fast startup!) and discretely returned to the room.. only to have my buddy come in and completely interrupt this perfect moment by suggesting we head downstairs to the men's hang out area.. Kid started wailing and the moment was over..

Is the r09 good for somebody starting out in recording?  Should I go with flash media or DAT?  Seems there are good arguments on this board for both.  Will someone please help me with this decision? 

Thanks!

[SunWizard]

Yes its good enough.  Better than DAT but more expensive too.  It depends on how you are using it, what kind of shows,mics, budget, many different questions.  I recommend reading this thread: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=65175.0

[kuuan]

1.samples:

I will work on posting some samples.  Although its kind of boring since they will just be quietness.

Finally had a chance to listen to them ( downloaded, burned on CD, played on home stereo )
They are anything but boring, great, very much appreciated, like my favourite music to my ears!

The sample 853>bb>R-09 sticks out with an additional low hum. Where does this come from? From the BB? - no, as it is not there at the 853>bb>iriver sample. So it comes from the R-09? again no, as it is not there with the other r-09 samples..odd..?

The self noise of the other three is very similar, surprisingly the iriver with bb is not louder, even seems more quiet. The volume of 853>bb>iriver is the most quiet though, after adjusting the volume to the same level I hardly could make out any difference in selfnoise of these 3 samples.

Generally there is quite a bit of selfnoise...well, I lack experience and don't know if other 'rigs' would produce much less selfnoise. As you know I'd be most curious how a 853<AD-20>iriver recoding would compare!

2. AT822<rockboxed iriver:

In the specs of the AT822, it says:

Warning: The AT822 is designed for battery operation only. Do not attempt to use when phantom power is present. Possible damage to the microphone may result.

Be careful with the AT822 into the iRiver, I can't find a switch in rockbox to turn off the plug power.  Does anyone here know if rockbox has a way to turn the plug power off?  If not you probably should not try the AT822 (and many other mics) direct into the iRiver.

The iriver always provides around 3.7V plug power on the line-in connector.

phuu, so the first thing I must find out is if I can use the AT822 with the Rockboxed iriver at all!
Even 3,7 Volt could harm the mic? Maybe must start a new thread asking about this!
I wanted to try the AT822 even with a 9 Volt battery box hoping that it would be high 48V phantom power only that could damage the mic.
If even 3,7V is too much, could I turn it off using standard iriver firmware?

3.my personal situation - of which you and Brian, maybe others are aware:
If even I can't try AT822>bb>iriver, maybe not even AT822>rockboxed iriver, could I try a preamp?
Would a preamp even be better than a bb?  Maybe I am lucky and can score a small preamp cheaply as I will be in Shanghai in abt. 10 days, later in Bangkok.
AT822>preamp>irver could be worth a try, if that is not satisfactory I could get SP-CMC4s + battery box or the AD-20 for my iriver, or the R-09..., thank you so much helping me to find out!

[whatboutbob]

The sample 853>bb>R-09 sticks out with an additional low hum. Where does this come from? From the BB? - no, as it is not there at the 853>bb>iriver sample. So it comes from the R-09? again no, as it is not there with the other r-09 samples..odd..?

I'm curious too.

[SunWizard]

That low sound is my heartbeat!  I noticed it when I saw the level meters move up and down one bar in perfect sync to my heartbeat, and why I mentioned it in my posts.

[whatboutbob]

That low sound is my heartbeat!  I noticed it when I saw the level meters move up and down one bar in perfect sync to my heartbeat, and why I mentioned it in my posts.

To my ears there's something else there unless you have a rather loud pacemaker.

Its more of a constant electronic hum...

Thanks for doing this btw.

FWIW, my 4061 > SP-bbox > r09 had no hum except for an a/c unit in the background.

I couldn't hear it for the banjo even if it was there

[SunWizard]

Could be something the wife or kids were doing, running a fan or our water pressure pump.  There were other things going on in the house.  Could even be the compact flourescent light bulb in the room 3' from the mics. It is unbelievably sensitive with the battery box plus high gain cranked up!  Doing the tests again would probably be the only way to determine, but I don't want to do it again.

[SunWizard]

And the reason to not do it again is that I think what we are hearing here mainly is noises in my house far more than any self noise of the units, because they all are very low noise.  Probably a much better test would be to go record some actual nature sounds, because the response of the exact same mics seems to be different connected to the iriver than the R-09.

[SunWizard]

OK I went and recorded some more sample files of a bird house outside my house with 3 baby bluebirds in it chirping fairly quietly from about 6' away.  I am out in the country so no car sounds or other things to interfere.  I think this is a better comparison.  It shows that the internal R-09 mics are not enough gain.  R-09 with AT853 and batt box is clearly the best, very detailed sounding.  These were all at max gain, glasses mounted.  A little bit of wind noise on some even through the tiny foam wind screens.

My stupid iRiver I have only had a few weeks quit working completely and is probably broke after 1 sample, you can see my post about that here: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=68550.0  Hope you have better luck with your iRiver kuuan.  I think I am switching to my R-09 for everything.

R-09 Internal http://www.xyzworks.com/birdR09_int.WAV 
R-09 AT853 direct http://www.xyzworks.com/birdR09_853direct.WAV
R-09 AT853 9v batt http://www.xyzworks.com/birdR09_853bb.WAV
iRiver AT853 9v batt http://www.xyzworks.com/bird_iriverbb853.wav  probably the last file ever for my iRiver       

[SunWizard]

I also note in the iRiver file a clicking sound that I think is the hard drive when it accesses, and think its audible here since we have such high gain.  I had it in my hand about 3' away from the mics but it got the sound somehow.  Its broke now so I can't test that out further.

[TideBleach]

ya that sounds like the h120 hardrive spinning up when its saving data. thats one sensitive mic if it picked that up.

TideBleach

[whatboutbob]

I also note in the iRiver file a clicking sound that I think is the hard drive when it accesses, and think its audible here since we have such high gain.  I had it in my hand about 3' away from the mics but it got the sound somehow.  Its broke now so I can't test that out further.

The clicking that's evident in the first iriver recording sounds like handling noise or at least an external noise (as opposed to anything to do with the iriver).  The sound in the second is indeed the hdd spin-up.  I’ve noted during my tests that it is actually quite evident when using high gain…so keep that sucker pocketed.

[TideBleach]

yeah the sounds arent from the h120 hardware, its the mics picking up the actual hardrive noise when spinning up.

[kuuan]

I remember having read about this clicking noise in the misticriver or rockbox forum and I am quite certain that it had been adressed by Rockbox and that it won't be there if using Rockbox!

[TideBleach]

he is using rockbox and yes rockbox fixed the clicking problem that was in the original firmware. the only reason the sounds are there are becasue his mics are so sensitive they picked up the sound from the hard drive spinning up since it was so quiet in the room.

[SunWizard]

he is using rockbox and yes rockbox fixed the clicking problem that was in the original firmware. the only reason the sounds are there are becasue his mics are so sensitive they picked up the sound from the hard drive spinning up since it was so quiet in the room.

Yes thats right I am using rockbox, recent release.  The bird sample where the clicks are obvious was outdoors and it wasn't as quiet as the room test, and why I was surprised to hear it.  I guess its just more proof how sensitive the AT-853 mics are.

[kuuan]

he is using rockbox and yes rockbox fixed the clicking problem that was in the original firmware. the only reason the sounds are there are becasue his mics are so sensitive they picked up the sound from the hard drive spinning up since it was so quiet in the room.

OK, understood.

SunWizard I am very sorry to hear about your problems with you iriver. Mine is still due to arrive, so I am still all excited about it.

Thank you very much for your new samples. Yes, the 853>bb>R-09 sounds best. The iriver sample, besids the click..rumbles. Is this selfnoise or e.g. an airplane passing?
Whatboutbob, you mention having done your own tests. Did you post your results? I'd SO much like to know how the iriver recordings w/o bb / w bb / compare to AD-20 > iriver recordings!
or to ask differently: Are the iriver's A/D+preamp really as 'noisy' as generally believed? Does it really need something like an AD-20 to go optical in for e.g. recording 'quiet' ambience because otherwise it's self noise would be too high? Or could a bb or a - cheap - selfmade - preamp be sufficient?

[SunWizard]

Thank you very much for your new samples. Yes, the 853>bb>R-09 sounds best. The iriver sample, besids the click..rumbles. Is this selfnoise or e.g. an airplane passing?
Whatboutbob, you mention having done your own tests. Did you post your results? I'd SO much like to know how the iriver recordings w/o bb / w bb / compare to AD-20 > iriver recordings!
or to ask differently: Are the iriver's A/D+preamp really as 'noisy' as generally believed? Does it really need something like an AD-20 to go optical in for e.g. recording 'quiet' ambience because otherwise it's self noise would be too high? Or could a bb or a - cheap - selfmade - preamp be sufficient?

No airplanes anywhere close, I was careful to avoid them while recording.  Maybe a jet way off in the distance?  I would have done another sample to check that but it broke

[kuuan]

thank you once again SunWiz, you have been very helpful indeed.
Damn that your H120 broke. I'd certainly try to claim a new one from the shop, there may be a good chance they will change it.

[treespine]

The first day I got my iRiver I was monitoring the built-in mic with headphones at very loud volume and almost shit my pants when that HD fired up.  Damn that thing is loud.

[whatboutbob]

Whatboutbob, you mention having done your own tests. Did you post your results? I'd SO much like to know how the iriver recordings w/o bb / w bb / compare to AD-20 > iriver recordings!
or to ask differently: Are the iriver's A/D+preamp really as 'noisy' as generally believed? Does it really need something like an AD-20 to go optical in for e.g. recording 'quiet' ambience because otherwise it's self noise would be too high? Or could a bb or a - cheap - selfmade - preamp be sufficient?

The tests I mentioned in that thread were more to detect cell phone interference.  I had no interest in comparing the noise floor or AD of the iriver vs AD20.

Its very difficult to answer your subjective questions.  Some people are content with Giant Squid Omnis running directly into an iriver.  Others complain about a rig that has cost them $10k.  It really depends.  Does AT853>PS2>AD20>H120 sound better to my ears than AT853>bb>H120?  Yes.  How much better?  Who knows?  Is it a lot less portable?  Definitely.

If I can find some time on the weekend I'll try to run a comparison between the AD20 and the H120 for you.

[kuuan]

...Its very difficult to answer your subjective questions.  Some people are content with Giant Squid Omnis running directly into an iriver.  Others complain about a rig that has cost them $10k.  It really depends.  Does AT853>PS2>AD20>H120 sound better to my ears than AT853>bb>H120?  Yes.  How much better?  Who knows?  Is it a lot less portable?  Definitely.

You are very right, quality assessments are subjective. A 'kind of objective' comparison of different rigs should be possible though, and I want 'good' quality', whatever that means, - in my case specially low noise floor, and I am willing to spend some more 100s for this.

I may have disturbed some by being too pressing with my requests, I am sorry for that. Reason is that I am new to audio recording and want to learn too much too fast: I still have one week left in a land where equipment, e.g the R-09 would cost me abt 60% of the prize I'd have to pay 'back home', I already bought an H120 online which has not yet arrived yet, I was not able to test it myself.

If I can find some time on the weekend I'll try to run a comparison between the AD20 and the H120 for you.

that would be...great and very much appreciated!

If there is any way to find out I'd be most curious to find out  what is the weakest link in the irivers:
Is it rather the A/D or the preamp? ( e.g. by comparing the line-in and the mic-in )
- if the A/D is OK, no need to go for a AD-20, an ext. preamp would suffice, ( like this piece favoured by videographers: http://tinyurl.com/qtj7k )
Since there is even a thread named: So..recording with the iRiver finally feasable? possibly there are many who'd be happy to know.

[SunWizard]

The first day I got my iRiver I was monitoring the built-in mic with headphones at very loud volume and almost shit my pants when that HD fired up.  Damn that thing is loud.

Yes that makes the internal mics useless for anything I would record, even voice.

[treespine]

yeah, I wish they would just get rid of the internal mic and use the space for a better ADC.