Topic: hyper advice

[jibooer]

Hey now! 
Got my hands on some akg hypers and going to take 'em out for the first time tonight, prolly run DINa. I would like to use them in combination with another pair of mics for a 4-channel mix in case I can't get a SBD patch.

Location will be DFC, 10-15' from stage, PA's flanking corner of small 20' wide stage @7-8'up. The band is Elephant Stone, and is your traditional rock outfit with the exception of a sitar.

My question is what should I use for the other set of mics - an X/Y single-point AT-822, or CK1x's?

Thanks for your time.

[achalsey]

Is this the room?
 
http://divanorange.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/P1010499___.JPG

I'd use the CK 1Xs in the same pattern just to see how they stack up against each other.  If you're doing it to mix together though, I'd run cards onstage if possible.

[acidjack]

I'm generally in the camp - after experimenting some myself - that this 4-mic mixing stuff up on a stand from the same place is kind of pointless.  I had this debate with a buddy today.  To me, unless something is vastly different in the sonic character of one mic, combining them just makes kind of a mess.  Here, you have two good pairs of AKGs.  Combining them together won't really make them sound better.

If you insist on doing it, I'd use the hypers more like a center channel and run them almost a-b or at most PAS, not in DINa. In DINa you're making them even more redundant with the CK1x. 

FWIW my favorite 4-mic mixes are either omnis + hypers - to give the hypers a controlled amount or room noise - or the DPA 4021/KM150 mixes Dan Lynch used to do.  The ORTF 4021s plus the extremely crispy and direct sound of the 150s pointed almost dead ahead was a nice contrast and gave the 150s a nice character while still getting that great direct sound they get.  Even though this is technically "wrong" I think it worked.  When I've run, say, 4 channels of Schoeps or other mics by the same manufacturer, I've been less pleased.

I'd definitely not throw in that AT822; I'm pretty sure it's just flat out inferior to your AKGs.

[jibooer]

Yep, that's the spot. I am hoping to set up at the 2nd table from stage centre.
Thanks for ideas. Never did stage recording there for amplified music....we'll see I guess.

[page]

this 4-mic mixing stuff up on a stand from the same place is kind of pointless.  I had this debate with a buddy today.  To me, unless something is vastly different in the sonic character of one mic, combining them just makes kind of a mess.  Here, you have two good pairs of AKGs.  Combining them together won't really make them sound better.

I heartedly agree.

If you want to mix 4 channels, at least mix two pair that aren't even close to each other in the room. Stuff on the same pole or right next to each other is a waste to me cause what you gain in sonic adjustments, you lose in phasey mush.

[F.O.Bean]

I cant wait to run mk41 and mk21 but i dont combine the two sources

[jibooer]

Much appreciated. I like to throw in omnis as much as possible, and have had great results as well. Just taking hypers out for the first time, and the omnis will have to stay home tonite. Anyway, since I got the toys, might as well play.

Once I get them fancy active cables, should be more advantageous...
 

Nope you definitely do not get much of a sonic benefit by combining two sources of the same pattern/spacing, and I have tended to almost ignore one or the other source and have used only what parts of it I could salvage to mixdown, but at least it gives you a good comp. and another source. I think that's what I'll strive for tonite.

[F.O.Bean]

Trust me, run DINa/DIN if youre FOB/DFC!!! If youre farther back or off center, Point At Stacks

[audBall]

Check out Fig 5, p. 6 of this PDF as it may help with your setup:
http://www.microphone-data.com/media/filestore/articles/Stereo%20zoom-10.pdf

Fixed angles across the board have a tendency of limiting the versatility of our rig's potential. Granted, the above PDF might be more useful when recording unamplified acoustic sources rather than a PA.

[page]

Check out Fig 5, p. 6 of this PDF as it may help with your setup:
http://www.microphone-data.com/media/filestore/articles/Stereo%20zoom-10.pdf

Fixed angles across the board have a tendency of limiting the versatility of our rig's potential. Granted, the above PDF might be more useful when recording unamplified acoustic sources rather than a PA.

The Williams doc should be required reading for anyone who is interested in consistently bringing their A game.   

[F.O.Bean]

I ALWAYS Bring my A game and I dont read SHIT

[page]

I ALWAYS think I Bring my A game and I dont read SHIT

fyp

[F.O.Bean]

I ALWAYS think I Bring my A game and I dont read SHIT

fyp

Just tryn to lighten the mood For real tho, I record every show like its my last

[page]

For real tho, I record every show like its my last

fair enough, fair enough. I won't dispute that. 

[F.O.Bean]

For real tho, I record every show like its my last

fair enough, fair enough. I won't dispute that. 

Ive been REALLY into the hobby since around 2002 even tho my first recordings were in 1994 In 2002 I got "SERIOUS" about the hobby, and my passion for it is more than its ever been I see myself taping until I can no longer do it physically

[F.O.Bean]

Anyway, sorry for the threadjack

Run Hypers/DINa or PAS depending on your location. Trust me on this I have mainly been running hypers since 2003/2004

[JimmieC]

Wish I had some ck63s.  I know you say you are leaving the omnis at home but would like to hear the ck62 mixed with some ck63 or ck61 (or simiular).

[F.O.Bean]

Wish I had some ck63s.  I know you say you are leaving the omnis at home but would like to hear the ck62 mixed with some ck63 or ck61 (or simiular).

I ran ck62 Omnis in a J-Disc back in 2005 and I must admit, I DID NOT like the sound of the ck62 omnis YMMV And this was outdoors at Moedown

[Gutbucket]

If the two pairs are in close proximity and pointed more or less in the same direction, meaning both pointing more or less stageward verses one pair pointing backwards, then do it for comparison or either/or purposes instead of mixing them.  If you want to mix them, either point them in very different directions or space them apart from each other by far more than you can typically do using a single stand.  Mixing an omni pair and a hyper pair can work great, but you'd ideally want to space the omnis twice as far as you normally would and use a narrower than normal configuration with the hypers.  Neither pair would then be optimal alone, but that arrangement would optimize the combination of the two.

[jibooer]

Thanks for all your suggestions...so much to consider, but what I have taken from them all is that, and as usual, trial and error and your ears are the only way to know what you like. After all these years, you would think that I would have used hypers before! It all turned out better than I expected, with me discovering a different set of nuances and directionality that the hypers provide.

Saying that, the venue situation was completely different than I anticipated. For one, the show was sold out to the point they were turning people away. 'Twas a sweaty mess by the end. There were no tables, so I was forced to set up toward the side. In addition, the basses were run thru subs that are built-in to the bottom of the stage, and the vocals and some stage mics were thru the PA's, so on-stage/stage lip would have been a mess.  I ran the hypers DINa, and turned the mics more or less at the PAs and raised them so they would be slighlty lower than the PAs. In my reasoning, the venue was small and loud enough, that I would still get some stage sound in the mix. After a few minutes I realized that a 4-channel mix would never cut it, and if I ran omnis I would have more spilly-talking howling butt-nuts than music.

So I ran 4-channels in then end and basically did a comparison between the CK1x's and the ck63's. I found that there was a wider image with the CK1x's NOS and the mids were a bit richer, but I ran into some issues with the snare drum for the opening act, and ended up getting some phasing/reflection(?) where it sound like an echo. The hypers held their own, and I have a pretty tight stereo image, with the chatty crowd noise tamed back, and clear PA presence. Not too frickin' bad IMO for a bar gig.

Anyway, in the end, and after a bit of post-processing, my ears are happy. I am sure the bands are going to be satisfied as well. The hypers did their job, and I look foreward to doing some more experimenting.

As far the 4-channel mixing, most of you have mentioned the necessity of mixing up locations, spacing and polar patterns, and I can't agree more. I often use a quasi-Faulkner array for jazz gigs with an omni split with fantastic results. I am sure the hypers in the mix will be nice and tasty as well.

Should be a kickown for one of the sets soon...

BTW, I wanted to share something with you that you may find funny- just before Elephant Stone started the set he was tuning his sitar and I heard this atypical, non-jamband, local yokel, french Quebecois quote of the evening -  "c'est une banjo ca?".  Give me strength...a banjo? Yah, he's playing a banjo buddy...LOL

[F.O.Bean]

How long have you owned hypers and not used them IMO, they'll grow to be your most used caps

[jibooer]

I got that feeling Bean...never really thought I would need them until I started doing the 4-channel thing. I got the caps Friday and used them that night for the first time.

[F.O.Bean]

I got that feeling Bean...never really thought I would need them until I started doing the 4-channel thing. I got the caps Friday and used them that night for the first time.

Sweet, congrats buddy! I always LOVED my old ck63 caps I used them A LOT!!!

[jibooer]

Kickdown:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=160826.0