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Author Topic: Schoeps CMR (mshilarious please enter!)  (Read 29338 times)

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Offline DSatz

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Re: Schoeps CMR (mshilarious please enter!)
« Reply #105 on: February 05, 2019, 01:02:56 PM »
jerryfreak, your post interests me a lot since I would like to consider a similar, possible arrangement for myself some day.

My one observation is that I think 130 dB SPL as a ceiling value is too high. I think you can afford to let more of the signal from the microphones into the recorder's preamps, in other words. 130 dB SPL is typical of a brass instrument such as trombone or trumpet playing at maximum volume, if the microphone is less than a foot away from the instrument's bell--or if a person is totally screaming (or a trained operatic soprano is hitting a high note with full force) directly into a microphone (say 2" distance or less). If you have even a one-meter distance from things like the above, the levels at the microphone won't reach 130 dB SPL.

130 dB SPL on any ongoing basis is so loud that no human being (except one who is already profoundly deaf) would voluntarily stay in the same room with it. It would engage your fight-or-flight mechanism to an almost uncontrollable extent. At ~120 dB SPL, if you're standing next to someone and you want to tell them something, you'd have to yell to be heard. At 130 dB SPL, even if you and the other person could withstand it somehow, you could scream all you wanted, and they still wouldn't hear you.

Does that explain the difference? Being in a 130 dB SPL environment for more than a small number of seconds would be torture, and I don't use that word lightly. Your legs would probably be running for the nearest exit before you even realized they were.

For decades, the overload point of many professional condenser microphones was around 120 dB SPL, and that level is rarely reached in normal recording work. I think the highest level I ever legitimately encountered was a single peak at around 122 dB SPL, which was during a vocal master class. It came from a very strong operatic soprano doing a special exercise that required considerable warmup, followed by a strong attack on a note in the top register; the microphone was six inches in front of her. It slightly overloaded the preamp that I was using at the time, but not the microphone. I think that if I were you in the situation you have, I would go another 6 dB and draw the line at 124. I think that should be more than enough headroom for any semi-distant recording that I might ever do; even that might well be too cautious, to the detriment of quiet recordings.

Note that wind can produce similar levels of output from a condenser microphone capsule as extremely high SPLs, but I assume that you would use windscreening if you were recording outdoors.

--best regards
« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 01:29:30 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline jerryfreak

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Re: Schoeps CMR (mshilarious please enter!)
« Reply #106 on: February 06, 2019, 12:36:56 AM »
thanks ill be experimenting

i bought a cheap handheld spl meter that may not be absolutely accurate but will be a reference for me to test since im trying to set up both the schoeps and the 4061s

i plan on testing the cmr powered by a regulated power supply at its min and max voltage to get an idea of the difference in output level (and if there is any value in adding additional power when you have a device like the lectro that provides 5V).

basically ill be close-ish mic'ing a monitor at a repeatable, measurable output level. i guess ill experiment with a 5K pot to see what works as far as matching mic input to the recorder. 130 dB was an extreme upper limit, and yes sometimes when stack taping im in places where it is uncomfortably loud (with earplugs). ill prob try to match 120 dBA to -10 dBFS jsut to give myself a little space for transients
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Offline jerryfreak

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Re: Schoeps CMR (mshilarious please enter!)
« Reply #107 on: February 09, 2019, 08:43:04 PM »
feels weird updating 2 threads, but i reported my results with testing the CMR+SPDR over in the SPDR thread

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=187843.msg2290730#msg2290730
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Offline DSatz

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Re: Schoeps CMR (mshilarious please enter!)
« Reply #108 on: February 10, 2019, 12:23:35 AM »
"A" weighting at 100+ dB SPL is absurd. That curve is designed to mimic the ear's sensitivity at 40 phons, which at 1 kHz is equivalent to 40 dB SPL. Above that level, progressively less and less treble emphasis is needed since the ear/brain become more nearly linear in its/their sensitivity. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour

--best regards
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline jerryfreak

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Re: Schoeps CMR (mshilarious please enter!)
« Reply #109 on: July 05, 2019, 10:17:25 PM »
update:

did some bench testing of CMR at different voltages. Used a test tone generator to simulate concert volume. Peaks on the recorder (Tascam DR100 mkiii) maxed out around -12dB in at higher input voltages


I tested the CMRs from 3.5V-11.0V input voltage (spec is 4.0V-10V), i was expecting better S/N at higher voltages, heres what i found

-output signal level increases up to 5.5V, then is flat from 5.5-11V

considering this flat output level from 5.5-11V as "0 dB", the following attenuation was observed
5.0V -1.5dB
4.8V -2.5dB
4.6V -3dB
4.4V -4dB
4.2V -5.5dB
4.0V -7dB
3.8V -12.5dB
3.6V -16.5dB
3.5V -19.5dB

So as you can see performance tails off considerably below 5V which is why the SPDR that provides 4.0V under load is a less-than-ideal solution (especially considering what it costs). most decent batterybox solutions provide 7-9V which should work fine

measuring noise (doing my best with loaded mic capsules wrapped up in multiple layers buried in a box in the quietest environment, peaks below -60 dB, rms around -75dB), i could not notice a difference in noise in the 5-10V range. noise was down a bit at 4V, reduced at about the same level as the output signal was attenuated at 4V

I did not test max SPL handling, but assume that performance at 10V would be at least as good as powering at 5.5V, perhaps better


« Last Edit: July 06, 2019, 12:46:28 AM by jerryfreak »
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Offline DSatz

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Re: Schoeps CMR (mshilarious please enter!)
« Reply #110 on: September 10, 2019, 10:19:03 PM »
I am sorry to have to tell people that Schoeps has discontinued the CMR. As of a few days ago the factory still had some of them in stock, but no more will be produced when those are sold.

--best regards
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline jerryfreak

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Re: Schoeps CMR (mshilarious please enter!)
« Reply #111 on: September 10, 2019, 10:31:49 PM »
I am sorry to have to tell people that Schoeps has discontinued the CMR. As of a few days ago the factory still had some of them in stock, but no more will be produced when those are sold.

--best regards

it sounded like you were hinting at new product(s) in previous messages.

is there a successor planned or are they getting out of the transmitter biz entirely?
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Online noahbickart

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Re: Schoeps CMR (mshilarious please enter!)
« Reply #112 on: September 10, 2019, 10:40:43 PM »
I am sorry to have to tell people that Schoeps has discontinued the CMR. As of a few days ago the factory still had some of them in stock, but no more will be produced when those are sold.

--best regards

it sounded like you were hinting at new product(s) in previous messages.

is there a successor planned or are they getting out of the transmitter biz entirely?

New product is the cmc1, which is a roughly CMR sized version of the cmc6: https://schoeps.de/en/products/colette/microphone-amplifiers/cmc-1.html
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk4v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, Darktrain 2 and 4 channel KCY extensions:
Preamps:    Schoeps VMS 02iub, Naiant Littlebox, Naiant IPA, Sound Devices Mixpre6
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6, Sony PCM m10

Home Playback: Mytek DSD 192> McIntosh MC162> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-4XX / Beyerdynamic DT880

Office Playback: Grace m903> AKG k701 / Hifiman HE-400

Offline jerryfreak

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Re: Schoeps CMR (mshilarious please enter!)
« Reply #113 on: September 10, 2019, 11:06:56 PM »

New product is the cmc1, which is a roughly CMR sized version of the cmc6: https://schoeps.de/en/products/colette/microphone-amplifiers/cmc-1.html

yes that is a new product, but it is a completely different application than a CMR.
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Offline DSatz

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Re: Schoeps CMR (mshilarious please enter!)
« Reply #114 on: September 10, 2019, 11:52:10 PM »
jerryfreak, right, the CMC 1 wasn't meant as a replacement for the CMR. Rather, it's an alternative to both the CMC 6 and more generally to Schoeps' CCM series of miniature, unitary (non-modular) mikes that are built around the same capsules that we use, but you may not even have ever heard of them, because people in America are mostly much more strongly drawn to the modular system.

Since I've been one of those people myself since before there even were Colette-series microphones, you won't find me arguing with such people. I'm very glad for the extra attention that's just been paid to us.

My vague impression (from neither being active in that part of the audio business, nor having close friends who are any more) is that the leading professional transmitters these days work with balanced or unbalanced microphones. That's why Schoeps invented their "RFI Shield" technology, which (contrary to the impression that might be given by the CMC 1 release materials) goes well beyond the toothed, gold plated shield plate visible in the well of the XLR connector.

--In recent years Schoeps has discontinued several accessories that I have used for years and like very much (the VMS 02 IB preamp, the KCY cable, and the RCY stereo active extension tubes for example). Any manufacturer can choose whatever strategy it wants to in any given market sector, but if people don't buy enough of a given item to meet the ongoing costs of keeping it in production, then it has to be critically examined sooner or later.

--best regards
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline jerryfreak

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Re: Schoeps CMR (mshilarious please enter!)
« Reply #115 on: September 11, 2019, 12:13:58 AM »
jerryfreak, right, the CMC 1 wasn't meant as a replacement for the CMR. Rather, it's an alternative to both the CMC 6 and more generally to Schoeps' CCM series of miniature, unitary (non-modular) mikes that are built around the same capsules that we use, but you may not even have ever heard of them, because people in America are mostly much more strongly drawn to the modular system.n, then it has to be critically examined sooner or later.

(un?)fortuantely im old enough to remember when CCM4s were popular for  >:D

(if you had the money to throw down)/(your application allowed) for a non-modular solution that married you to one set of capsules

thats why CMR in 2007 was really a breakthrough for our application
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