Topic: spot micing individual players... 4 mic mix

[JasonSobel]

Tonight, a friend and I are going to record a local band, with 4 players; mandolin, accordion, upright bass, and percussion.  The stage is at the back of a bar, and its a very small stage.  The drawing below gives a rough estimate of where the players will setup.

In the past, when I've taped this band at this venue, the recordings can be hit or miss.  there are no vocals, so on-stage setups is what I've tried before.  But because the stage is so small, whatever instrument is the closest to the stero mic setup dominates the recording, while the other instruments end up quieter in the recorded mix.

In an effort to avoid these issues, a friend and I are planning to spot mic each of the players.  The gear we have available to us is:

(2) schoeps cmc6/mk21 > Aeta PSP-3 > tascam HD-P2
and
(2) microtech gefells m200 > lunatec V3 > tascam HD-P2

both tascam decks will be synced to the V3's clock, (which we've done in the past many times with mics/sbd), but this will be the first time we're doing a 4 mic mix.

We're thinking to put the schoeps subcards on the upright bass and the other on the percussion, because the mk21 caps have a deeper bass response relative to the gefells.  and the percussionist has a few different things and is a little more spread out than the other instruments.  Then, we'd have my gefell cardiods on the accordion and the mandolin.

I'm sure we'll have some bleed through on the channels, because this is a live performance on a small stage with no real opportunities to isolate the instruments or players.  I think we've thought this out, but as neither of us have done a recording like this before, I'm open to suggestions.

Do you have any other ideas or suggestions that might work better than what I have described?  Thoughts?  Comments?

[audBall]

We're thinking to put the schoeps subcards on the upright bass and the other on the percussion, because the mk21 caps have a deeper bass response relative to the gefells.  and the percussionist has a few different things and is a little more spread out than the other instruments.  Then, we'd have my gefell cardiods on the accordion and the mandolin.

^This is kind of what I was thinking to begin with. 

You could also try flanking the subcards far left/right and centering the gefells with a coincident (or near-coincident) pattern, and mixing to taste. 

[easy jim]

You could also try flanking the subcards far left/right and centering the gefells with a coincident (or near-coincident) pattern, and mixing to taste. 

I think this is also a really good idea.  I'd expect the percussion and bass to bleed the most, and potentially create bleed and/or phase issues in mixing if you spot mic everyone.  Since the stage is really small, as you mentioned, AudBall's suggestion may work better, and preserve a general 'ambient' flavor to the resultant mix.  I'd try the Gefells as an XY pair in the middle of the stage, likely better with a wider than 90 degree pick up angle.  Add the schoeps subcards as flanking mics, and place the one for percussion in an appropriate spot to get either more or less perc/accordian as you'd expect to be necessary based on past experience with the band and in that room.

When post-mixing, you may want to break out the flanking pair as mono tracks and correct any time delay separately between them and the center pair (especially considering the percussionist being in a weird back-corner like that).

[JasonSobel]

interesting.  though I'm hesitant to run the gefells in the middle, simply because the stage is so small, running XY in the center would essentially be like spot micing the upright bass, but with two mics.  I guess with a real wide angle, something like 120 or 130 degrees, that would naturally attenuate the bass (because it'd be hitting the mics off-axis) and pick up more accordion and mandolin.

I'd expect the percussion and bass to bleed the most, and potentially create bleed and/or phase issues in mixing if you spot mic everyone.

what sort of phase issues might arise?

[easy jim]

interesting.  though I'm hesitant to run the gefells in the middle, simply because the stage is so small, running XY in the center would essentially be like spot micing the upright bass, but with two mics.  I guess with a real wide angle, something like 120 or 130 degrees, that would naturally attenuate the bass (because it'd be hitting the mics off-axis) and pick up more accordion and mandolin.

I'd expect the percussion and bass to bleed the most, and potentially create bleed and/or phase issues in mixing if you spot mic everyone.

what sort of phase issues might arise?

I was thinking really wide angle XY for exactly the reasoning you state above.  I also figure the accordian would be a bit louder than the mando, and would come up nice and loud in the left channel of the XY pair.

The possibility of phase issues may come into play from the split/flanking pair if there's a big time differential from between when one of the instruments hits the two flanking mics.  For instance, if you spot mic the percussion with the left flanking mic, and the right flanking mic is on the mando (assuming the accordian will be louder on stage for the center pair), you'll have a big enough time difference between when the percussion sounds hit the left and right mic.  Depending on placement, it may be helpful to slide that one by a milisec or some fraction thereof if you hear any weirdness in the frequency range when mixing the two sources.

[JasonSobel]

thanks for the info about the phasing.  and if it makes any difference, in the past, the mandolin has been a good deal louder on-stage compared to the accordion.  actually, here's an example:
http://www.archive.org/details/gfat2008-05-26.flac16
I ran approx. DIN on-stage, and the bass is front and center, loud and clear.  the mandolin is clearly audible off to the right, but the accordion is pretty quiet.

maybe we'll try the wide angle XY + split subcards.  I guess this is the situation where a 788 would be sweet (and 6 other mics & thousands of extras dollars   with 8 channels, we could do it all.  wide angle XY, split sub cards, and spot mic everyone...)

[easy jim]

well, considering that the mando has been louder, maybe the thing to do is to put the XY pair a bit off center in front of or closer to the accordian with the bass at the zero axis point...then you could spot mic the mando and the percussion.   

[Gutbucket]

I like your original idea.  I'd get the cards in close on the mando and accordion, place one of the subcards close on the bass (even wedged under the tailpiece pointing up at the bridge if possible), then place the other subcard over the percussion, arranged overheadish to pick up all the percussion sounds along with enough room sound so your final mix doesn't sound too dry like a board feed.  Some bleed there is good as long as the percussion is strong and clear.  The close proximity of the subcard to the bass takes care of most bleed into it by sheer nearness volume (vs pattern).  Even on that small stage, the 3 mics on those close mic'ed instruments should be close enough to get them more than 3 times their close mic'ing distance to the percussion overhead.  That satisfies the 3:1 rule and I'm thinking you would have less potential comb filtering issues and more control over instrument balance and placement than trying to mix two separate stereo pairs (the center cardioid XY + the spaced subcards).  [edit- the musicians on bass, mando and accordian will also be mostly facing away from the purcussion].  I'm thinking that you can actually use the bleed into the slightly farther positioned, overheadish percussion mic to your advantage both get the whole kit and also pick up some overall ambience. 

Fun puzzle.

[georgeh]

so, what did you end up doing? how did it come out?

[JasonSobel]

yes, I've been meaning to give the update here.  I spent a few hours mixing the results last night, and never got around to posting here.  The on-stage setup was a little different then I was expecting.  Both the upright bass and the mandolin had pick-ups, and had amps on the stage (behind where they were standing).

So we chose to spot mic everyone.  We put one schoeps mk21 on the bass amp, one gefell m200 on the mandolin amp, the other gefell m200 eight or nine inches from the accordion, and the second mk21 over the percussion.

generally speaking, I think it came out well.  the bass and mandolin channels are very solid, with hardly any bleed from other instruments (as one might guess when putting a mic right up to an amp.  I think the mk21 was just a couple inches from the bass amp, while the m200 was maybe 6 inches back from the mandolin amp.  The accordion channel had picked up some of the other instruments (the bass in particular).  and then the overhead mk21 for the percussion was the most "ambient" sounding.  That mic picked up all the instruments.  but the percussion is still the most prominant, so I think we're in good shape.

I just uploaded one song song (in mp3) of the first go around with the mix.  You can check it out here:
http://shows.turtleside.com/set2t04.mp3

I think the mix still needs to be tweaked a bit.  I think the accordion is a little too loud, I'll probably bring it down a couple of dB's for the "final" mix.  and the bass may need to come up slightly.  I've panned it such that the percussion is slightly left of center, the bass is slightly right of center, the accordion is more to the left, and the mandolin is more to the right.  pretty much to recreate how it would sound when looking at the stage.

and of course, any and all comments about the mix (and mic setup) are welcome.

[easy jim]

^ cool.  Gotta check out that sample when I get home tonight.

[stantheman1976]

It sounds good.  The mandolin sounds a little low in the mix to me.  Maybe it sounds different to others.  I like how you panned the different instruments to mimic the room's mix.

[Gutbucket]

Cool music.

Love the accordion sound.  The amp'ed mando does sound low in the mix until it picks up a bit near the end of the track where it sounds balanced with the accordion.  Guessing the player was just laying back at the beginning.  The bottom of the bass fiddle and bass drum sounds boxy to me. Not the very bottom octave, but 150-200hzish. I eq'd abroad dip there and a slight midrange adjustment and it sounded much cleaner and natural on my stereo and also on the phones. YMMV.

Hold on.. attaching a screen shot.

BTW, cool music.

[JasonSobel]

thanks for all the opinions and suggestions...

first off, here are a couple of samples of "mix v2".  differences from mix 1 is the slightly lower accordion and slightly higher bass.

http://shows.turtleside.com/set2-mix02-44_04.mp3
http://shows.turtleside.com/set2-mix02-44_10.mp3

(the first one is the same track from before.  the second one is from a little later on in the set).

The amp'ed mando does sound low in the mix until it picks up a bit near the end of the track where it sounds balanced with the accordion.  Guessing the player was just laying back at the beginning.

yeah, I think the mandolin player was lying low in the start of t04.  the second clip (in this link) is a song where the mandolin is more prominent.

The bottom of the bass fiddle and bass drum sounds boxy to me. Not the very bottom octave, but 150-200hzish. I eq'd abroad dip there and a slight midrange adjustment and it sounded much cleaner and natural on my stereo and also on the phones. YMMV.

Hold on.. attaching a screen shot.

interesting.  at this point, I haven't EQ'ed anything.  but I'll give it a shot and see what the results sound like.  also, if anyone has an opinion about EQ'ing individual track vs. EQ'ing the stereo mix on the output side, I'd like to hear it.  I'm thinking it'd be better to EQ individual tracks.

and in regards to the bass drum sounding boxy.  well, it wasn't a bass drum.  the percussion player wasn't playing a drum set.  he had a few different hand held drums and shakers and that sort of thing.  and he had this box percussion thing that he was sitting on while playing it.  I don't know what it's called.  but it's not a bass drum...  it actually is a wooden box type thing

[Gutbucket]

in regards to the bass drum sounding boxy.  well, it wasn't a bass drum.  the percussion player wasn't playing a drum set.  he had a few different hand held drums and shakers and that sort of thing.  and he had this box percussion thing that he was sitting on while playing it.  I don't know what it's called.  but it's not a bass drum...  it actually is a wooden box type thing

Its called a cajón.  A Latin box drum originally derived from shipping crates, or old drawers the old Cuban guys here in South Florida tell me.  They can get an amazing variety of sounds out of that box. So boxy sound is accurate! Just kidding, I hear the same frequency emphasis in the bass instrument.

I record a local acoustic jazz trio and one of the regular drummers often substitutes a smallish metal dumek type drum for the kick, bungied to his kick pedal contraption (could be an Egyptian or middle eastern drum? it looks like drums I saw in Turkey).  It sounds good live but often seems to sound boxy on my recordings, overemphasizing that same range.  When he plays a standard kick, the recorded sound is both deeper and crisper, without the exaggerated resonance in that region. [shrug]

I'll give a listen again tonight.