Topic: crossed hypercards..?

[macdaddy]

i have seen mention of some folks using this mic technique with stereo mics, such as the akg c422 (which i use). i was curious as to why and how i would run such a pattern...

ditto for crossed wide cardioids (why? and how?)...

thanks, in advance, for any information or insight.

[jlykos]

Do you mean running DIN or reversing the channels?  I run DIN all the time with my hypercards and it sounds great.  I just have to cross the bodies to get the capsules into position to do so.  If you mean running out of phase, I have no idea why anybody would do that.

[Brian Skalinder]

I'm guessing "crossed" = XY?

[jlykos]

Dr. Egon Spengler: There's something very important I forgot to tell you.
Dr. Peter Venkman: What?
Dr. Egon Spengler: Don't cross the streams.
Dr. Peter Venkman: Why?
Dr. Egon Spengler: It would be bad.
Dr. Peter Venkman: I'm fuzzy on the whole good/bad thing. What do you mean, "bad"?
Dr. Egon Spengler: Try to imagine all life as you know it stopping instantaneously and every molecule in your body exploding at the speed of light.
Dr Ray Stantz: Total protonic reversal.
Dr. Peter Venkman: Right. That's bad. Okay. All right. Important safety tip. Thanks, Egon.

[manitouman]

Dr. Egon Spengler: There's something very important I forgot to tell you.
Dr. Peter Venkman: What?
Dr. Egon Spengler: Don't cross the streams.
Dr. Peter Venkman: Why?
Dr. Egon Spengler: It would be bad.
Dr. Peter Venkman: I'm fuzzy on the whole good/bad thing. What do you mean, "bad"?
Dr. Egon Spengler: Try to imagine all life as you know it stopping instantaneously and every molecule in your body exploding at the speed of light.
Dr Ray Stantz: Total protonic reversal.
Dr. Peter Venkman: Right. That's bad. Okay. All right. Important safety tip. Thanks, Egon.

Revenge of the Nerds? Thanks for the laugh! 

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

Dr. Egon Spengler: There's something very important I forgot to tell you.
Dr. Peter Venkman: What?
Dr. Egon Spengler: Don't cross the streams.
Dr. Peter Venkman: Why?
Dr. Egon Spengler: It would be bad.
Dr. Peter Venkman: I'm fuzzy on the whole good/bad thing. What do you mean, "bad"?
Dr. Egon Spengler: Try to imagine all life as you know it stopping instantaneously and every molecule in your body exploding at the speed of light.
Dr Ray Stantz: Total protonic reversal.
Dr. Peter Venkman: Right. That's bad. Okay. All right. Important safety tip. Thanks, Egon.

Revenge of the Nerds? Thanks for the laugh! 

Ghostbusters...

T

[DSatz]

"Crossed" = X/Y. Used to be, some people actually advocated placing the microphones "head to head" (facing one another), thus the name. You rarely see that advice any more, and I'm glad of that.

In the late 1970s I used "crossed hypercardioids" with the Neumann SM 69fet stereo mike that I had at the time (with remote pattern control). Then in the 1980s I used to record with coincident Schoeps MK 41 capsules much of the time. Those are somewhere between supercardioid and hypercardioid, a little closer to the former.

You can think of this type of setup as a modified version of Blumlein stereo, with a wider stereophonic recording angle and a somewhat drier reverberation balance. It's way more fun than X/Y with cardioids--there's less clumping of all the apparent sound sources into the center of the stereo image, and a much more even spread from left to right.

X/Y with wide cardioids doesn't work well at all. There simply isn't enough difference between the two channels for decent stereo, even if you face the mikes 180 degrees apart from one another. To my mind even cardioids need to be spaced apart at least a little bit for two-mike stereo.

--best regards

[tgakidis]

I recently purchased a 426 and have been wondering about using the multiple patterns, icluding xy hypercardiods.  It would make sense that the hyper setting would do a good job in achieving a distinct stereo image.  I agree that the wide card would indeed sound to similar as xy and produce a weak stereo image.  I would imagine that it would sound better stage lip/on stage with a wider angle.  I have only taken out the 426 once so far and played it safe with blumlein and mid-side.  My next adventure will be far more experimental as I plan to play with the pattern box extensively.  Any advise would be greatly appreciated.

[macdaddy]

thx for the input...

so with my mic (c422), when i see people talking about running "crossed hypercards" they are referring to the 90 degree included angle between the caps (like blumlein, but on the pattern box, i set to hypercard - which setting is that on the s42, by the way?). so in essence, the mic and capsules are oriented the same way as they are for blumlein (with 2x fig 8 ) or xy (with 2x cards), but the patterns are 2x hypercard. there is no reason to change the angle (it stays at 90degrees)..?

is there a time when this is better than blumlein..? i have noticed that if i can get pretty much dead center, blumlein sounds fabulous, but if i am forced (due to club, room, environment) to set up a bit off center, blumlein doesnt do so well. in these situations, should i be spinning the mic (so the mid point of the 90degree angle is not dead ahead but angled more towards the center of the stage) or leave it be (straight ahead like usual). or is this a time when switching to hypercards (from the fig8s) would be beneficial..?

again, many, many thanks.

[jlykos]

I don't know; I used to run XY with my Gefell hypers and I really didn't like how it sounded.  The recording had incredible depth, but at the expense of the soundstage.  The stage sounded very narrow with many of the instruments sounding like they were coming from one source.  The high end was also tipped up to a degree that was distracting.  Just my thoughts on the matter; I now run DIN pretty much exclusively with the hypers and it sounds very good.  XY gives me more detail and sounds brighter; DIN gives me a more encompassing soundstage and sounds darker.

[drewloo]

i set to hypercard - which setting is that on the s42, by the way?)

Hypercard pattern is probably around 2 or 3 o'clock.

[tgakidis]

i set to hypercard - which setting is that on the s42, by the way?)

Hypercard pattern is probably around 2 or 3 o'clock.

It's the first click to the right of card.  See this thread (#6)

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,92816.0.html

[DSatz]

No, the position you describe (one click clockwise from cardioid) is supercardioid. Hypercardioid is at about the midpoint between cardioid and figure-8, so it would be one click farther clockwise.

[macdaddy]

cool, thanks for the info...

so then, i guess the advantage to using hypercards would be to have the mics pic up a wider range of the sound by changing the pattern. is this preferable to changing the angle of the caps (to better aim them at the sound source/stage)..?

[Gutbucket]

Well, assuming that the angle between the mics remains unchanged, you're not picking up a wider angle of sound since you're actually narrowing the mic pattern by using a hypercardioid instead of a cardioid.  But the resulting playback image will sound 'wider' because there will be less overlap between the patterns of the two mics in forward direction, resulting in less 'shared' mono information in the stereo recording.

The choice of mic pattern and included angle between mics is closely related.  If you are trying to keep a similar stereo spread on playback, then cards would need a wider angle than hypercards, which would need a wider angle than figure 8's.  So generally hypercards would use a narrower angle between mics than cards for the same 'pickup angle' or SRA (Stereo Recording Angle).  That may be one reason to chose a particular pattern. Since you can somewhat compensate for 'width' changes by adjusting the mic angle along with the pattern, other aspects of pattern choice might become more important to you than the stereo playback width such as the off-axis sensitivity of the mics, the off-axis response of the mics, the off-axis sensitivity of the mics as a stereo pair, the stereo or mono nature of the ambient pickup, overall sonic color, etc.