Topic: Church Recording

[dirtrider]

Hey guys, asked over on the Venue Board, but no luck. I'm going to Andrew Bird at 4th Presbyterian here in Chicago, and I know a couple of you do some recording in Churches. Any insights? The website says it holds 1,000, so unless he's sectioned off somehow, it's not exactly small. I'm sitting in the Balcony, not sure how many feet away from source that is. I read the review from Mineapolis show in a church, and they said he was basically unamplified, using huge megaphone type devices like you'd see on a grammaphone. Any input will be greatly appreciated as always!

[dirtrider]

After reading my post, I even asked myself what the hell is it I was asking! Cap selection is probably my biggest question. I have omni, card and hypercard available. SP cmc8 > SP PREAMP > R09    Just wondering what general acoustic properties you've encountered in Churches.  Thanks again

[Neilyboy]

Just my thoughts as I could be totally wrong (as I have never recorded in a church). I would probably say your best bet is cards so you are not picking up the extra 'church hall' ambiance and more of the tunes..  maybe use an extension bar clamped to the balcony in some way?

Neil

[OOK]

Although I have never recorded in a church I have thought about it... 
The problems with churches they tend to be really live sounding rooms....big stone buildings..with tons of reverb..at least the ones in NEPA.... 

To answer your question it really depends on where you can record from..  Hypes would cut the most of the room sound out than the rest of your caps....if you can record as close as possibly I would use cards...any further back stick with the hypers.... unless you are literally on top of the sound source stay away from the omnis...omnis would be the most natural sounding but like I said unless your within a few feet of the source it will pick up all the reverb and take away from the music....

hope this helps...

[Gutbucket]

I've recorded jazz, classical and choral performers in churches and the lush ambience is often what its all about- you can really hear the room. A musical style that makes good use of that with a performer that knows how to use it to advantage can make for an excellent recording.  A style that tries to overload the room sounds bad everywhere in it.

Location is #1. Can you get closer? Somewhere on the floor closer up front?    If this is un-amplified then closeness is your friend.  Have you been in the room before? Does it sound good? Does it sound good up in the balcony?

From farther back you will not exclude room ambience by choice of capsule since you'll be located completely within the reverberant field.  That doesn't mean you will get a bad recording, but it does mean that the direct sound will not be significant enough for directional caps to make much of a difference in improving the direct-to-reverberant ratio of the sound arriving at the microphones.   This isn't an amplified bar or theater situation where sound is projected out from FOH speakers and you might be able to reject slap echo off the side or back wall.  I’d guess you will have a quiet, respectful audience so crowd noise right around the mics should be less of an issue. Cap choice (paired with the mic config) will effect the tone, frequency response and general feel of the recording. A detailed, transparent mic that can support boosting the presence range afterwards if necessary would be good.  A mic with a diffuse eq rise would be appropriate from farther back.

If the church sounds good, many people would safely choose to run cardioids.  I'd lean towards spaced omnis and dig the lushness, depending. The sense of envelopment with spaced omnis in a good sounding church can be something quite special and a lot of that depends on the low end sensitivity that omnis have (in combination with the spaced technique), even if the performance doesn’t have much bass material.

Here’s something I would look to try: If you can space your omnis and place them up against the flat front face of the balcony, you can use the boundary layer technique to great advantage.  By placing the mic capsules directly against the surface you do two important things: First and perhaps most obviously, you change the pickup pattern of the microphone from a full sphere to a hemisphere pointing out from the boundary (in this case towards the stage); second and perhaps most importantly, you effectively double the amount of direct sound vs diffuse sound available at that location, which will make the recording sound much clearer and more detailed.  I've done that from balconies and back walls and made recordings that were surprisingly clear and up front sounding from what seemed to me impossibly far back.

Save the hypers for the bar gigs.

[edited for clarity]

[dhora]

The only time I taped in a church was for a friend's wedding.  The speakers for the priest's mic were in the front of the church, and the organ, singer, & speakers for the singer were in a balcony in the rear of the church.  I used omnis and setup in the middle to try to catch both.

[newplanet7]

I've recorded in a few churches with cards.
It ranged from hollow, to less hollow.

[Gutbucket]

Re-read my post and I sound a bit like a reverberant cheerleader.  I don't mean to say you can't have too much reverberant church ambience.  You can, and dealing with that is the primary challenge.  That's why the boundry technique can be so supprisingly effective when forced to record from farther back than you'd like and there is a nice boundary sitting right there for you to use.  When your recording is clear enough and the ambience works, the reverberance can be a great asset. 

The way I look at it is that you can't really fight it effectivly anyway so it's better to work with and optimize it. If the sound of the room sucks or the music just doesn't work in there, then the recording is probably doomed to begin with.

[newplanet7]

If the sound of the room sucks or the music just doesn't work in there, then the recording is probably doomed to begin with.

yep.

[rjp]

I've done quite a bit of recording in large, reverberant churches and chapels, using my in-ear binaurals (Sound Professionals SP-TFB-2). My tactic is to sit up towards the front, but about 5-8 rows back, and preferably as close as possible to the center aisle. I've been very happy with the results. I run them directly in to my LS-10's mic input, and I've never needed to apply any bass boost even with pipe organ. At one place I had to filter out a mysterious 30 Hz rumble, though - probably related to the heating system. Since that was an a cappella chorus, the filtering didn't take away anything needed.

A tip for SP-TFB-2 users: Always use the windscreens. In my experience, they almost completely eliminate eardrum-induced clicks and pops (at the very worst, noises from nearby audience members flipping pages are more apparent). The golden rule: YOU should keep quiet and reasonably still when going this route.

At one performance, I saw the group's own recording rig - they were using a single-point mic (probably an AT822 or similar), high up on a light stand next to a pew, about 20 feet from the chorus. I don't know what sort of processing they do (if I were using an X/Y setup, I'd convert it to M/S and tinker with the imaging in post).

[dirtrider]

Thank You one and all. As always, expert, experienced advice. Called the church, and she told me the balcony was at the back of the church. According to their wedding info, you need a 125 foot runner, ARGH! So the attached shot is probably from the balcony. Wish I'd have known that when I got the tix, I was in on the pre-sale, and balcony tix were top-tier, same as floor front price! I'm taking both CARD and HYPERS and see when I get there. Shows received nice reviews.

http://www.suntimes.com/entertainment/music/1941189,andrew-bird-gezelligheid-concert-church-121609.article


http://www.suntimes.com/entertainment/-1,121509birdg.photogallery?index=5

[stevetoney]

...and don't forget that each song ends with a choral 'amen'. 

On a serious note, regarding your balcony tix, you could try to trade with someone and offer them a free copy of your recording, a beer, whatever in exchange.

[Gutbucket]

Impressive room.  Bigger than I imagined.  From appearances the reverb quality should be very good, yet the balcony does appear to be a mile distant.  You will be far, far into the completely diffuse field.  Again I stress that the only thing that will increase the ratio of direct sound at that distance is boundary mounting- and that will do so by a factor of x2 or 6db.  Directional caps will not make any difference in the quantity of reverberance at that distance and that environment.  Omnis will give you a far more natural recording in that situation, with or without the boundary advantage.  From that far back I'd space them least 3' apart or more. 

If it sounds like I strongly recommend the omnis, it's becasue I do.  Use the cardioids if that makes you feel better, but certainly not the hypers!  For the love of music don't do it!

In the photos you linked, Andrew was using mics, which would be feed to a PA of some sort. Possibly only feeding speakers in those on-stage horns but I doubt those are anything but decoration (that's all they appeared to be in his Bonaroo simulcast). If you are lucky they will have some sort of delay-line FOH reinforcement speakers up in the balcony.  The church probably has something like that for their in-house PA, else no one up there could understand anything said up front during services, or anything spoken on-stage during this performance.  If they use that or not for the concert is another question, but I bet they will.

[mfrench]

 

If it sounds like I strongly recommend the omnis, it's becasue I do.  Use the cardioids if that makes you feel better, but certainly not the hypers!  For the love of music don't do it!

So, shotguns?

[Gutbucket]

 
Am I overboard, Mike? I felt a pang of self-riteousness typing that.
You know better than me, experienced one.