Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)

[yousef]

I must say that I really resent the current trend for recording devices with integral mics. I can only regard them as space-occupying, budget-sapping near-irrelevant add-ons.

And that's not to mention the flurry of sub-standard recordings they encourage, stealthed from someone's shirt pocket...

M10 minus internal mics plus digital-in = my current ideal.

[aryolkary]

That is really not a considered attitude. Tons of users find them not only usable but necessary. Internal mics aren't the reason for the lack of digital input. It is common for people to only consider their own use, specially in specific related forums.

[pool]

To be honest, I consider the M10 to be the FIRST recorder good for shows using internal mics. I never liked the recent r-09/HR or zoom uploads.

[fmaderjr]

To be honest, I consider the M10 to be the FIRST recorder good for shows using internal mics. I never liked the recent r-09/HR or zoom uploads.

Here's where we totally agree. The R-09's internals suck for music and the M10's are great. I'll probably never plan on using it for that, but it'll do great if you need it to. Only problem with internals for a low profile concert is where to put the recorder so the sound doesn't get muffled and of course a lack of stereo separation (which I don't care all that much about if the sound is good).

I almost got to use the internals for an impromptu jam session last week but 2 of the band members got pissed off at each other and it never came off. I packed the M-10 & a little tripod just in case and it almost came in handy.

The only other good option, IMO is the R-09 Micsketeer mod, which also sounds great and gives you a choice of card or omni caps. It wouldn't be nearly as good for low noise stuff (think R-09 + CA-11's without a preamp) but probably would be better for ear crushingly loud stuff. The M10 is rated to go up to 124 dB, which is great, but the Micskteer will go way over that (think next to the stacks at a metal show). 

[pool]

the only thing i can disagree on is staying close to the stacks :-) while i do not wish it on anyone in any possible way, life can change within the space of a one hour show. those who get hurt dont speak about it much after. believe me and take care.

[fmaderjr]

We agree here as well. I never stack tape and generally bring ear plugs to loud shows.

I just meant that the Micsketeer would be better at that for people who want to do it. I don't think stack tapes sound too good anyway, but may be the lesser of 2 evils at shows with extremely talkative crowds.

Once I forgot my earplugs to a Link Wray show in 2003. I made some out of candle wax and napkins I got from the table we were seated at and they worked amazingly well.

[yousef]

That is really not a considered attitude. Tons of users find them not only usable but necessary. Internal mics aren't the reason for the lack of digital input. It is common for people to only consider their own use, specially in specific related forums.

I have no idea what a 'considered attitude' is... And I don't quite understand your link between digital inputs and internal mics...

I really cannot imagine why internal mics would ever be necessary apart from for people conducting interviews and wanting unfettered portability or in situations where external mics have failed/been forgotten.

For me, the internal configurations on these budget recorders really seem to be too fraught with compromises to be considered a decent option: (presumably) cheap mics, which are generally omnis, minimally spaced and in direct contact with the recorder and thus likely to be subject to handling noise. Plus the fact that your placement options are highly likely to be limited by the fact that mics and recorder are effectively one unit.

I think a big difficulty is that these 24 bit recorders seem to make people think that they are a one-stop solution for high quality recording. Which is not to say that it's impossible to make a listenable recording with internals, just that I suspect that a cheaper recorder plus relatively cheap external mics + a bit of thought could easily give a much better recording.

[ehren]

That is really not a considered attitude. Tons of users find them not only usable but necessary. Internal mics aren't the reason for the lack of digital input. It is common for people to only consider their own use, specially in specific related forums.

I have no idea what a 'considered attitude' is... And I don't quite understand your link between digital inputs and internal mics...

I really cannot imagine why internal mics would ever be necessary apart from for people conducting interviews and wanting unfettered portability or in situations where external mics have failed/been forgotten.

For me, the internal configurations on these budget recorders really seem to be too fraught with compromises to be considered a decent option: (presumably) cheap mics, which are generally omnis, minimally spaced and in direct contact with the recorder and thus likely to be subject to handling noise. Plus the fact that your placement options are highly likely to be limited by the fact that mics and recorder are effectively one unit.

I think a big difficulty is that these 24 bit recorders seem to make people think that they are a one-stop solution for high quality recording. Which is not to say that it's impossible to make a listenable recording with internals, just that I suspect that a cheaper recorder plus relatively cheap external mics + a bit of thought could easily give a much better recording.

How many recordings have you made with the internal mics of the Sony M10?

[yousef]

How many recordings have you made with the internal mics of the Sony M10?

Not one. But unless Sony have managed to alter the laws of physics that pertain to stereo imaging and sound waves' travel through air, I suspect that the internal mics are going to represent a hefty compromise.

But aside from that, surely the option of being able to run your mics at (or above) head height while still being able to monitor/alter levels makes external mics a no-brainer?

[page]

I find it quietly promising for the M10 that on TS.com (which is a big user base that primarily uses external mics) the biggest conversation debate we seem to be having is over the attached mics compared to some discussions about recorders which have power issues, or bad gain stages, or any number of other problems.

That's quietly impressive to me.

[yousef]

That's quietly impressive to me.

Early days yet...

From what I've heard, the M10 does seem to be getting very close to the stealth ideal and pending any horror stories I'll be keen to pick one up.

Then again, it seems like problems can sometimes take a good while to become apparent...

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I find it quietly promising for the M10 that on TS.com (which is a big user base that primarily uses external mics) the biggest conversation debate we seem to be having is over the attached mics compared to some discussions about recorders which have power issues, or bad gain stages, or any number of other problems.

That's quietly impressive to me.

Until someone actually produces a comp on audio quality, it's all just hype to me

The rumor I've heard is that the m10 has weak bass response.  We've yet to hear how well it handles intense bass at high signal levels, among other things.

Do any m10 owners have access to a v3?  That's the ideal comp platform; comparing the m10 source to the a/d in the v3.

[darktrain]

Its a great unit, thats all there is to say, it has everything you really need in small handheld and IMO is superior to any other handheld made to date, those that are digging to find reason not to get it are just missing the boat on this one. But i guess thats why TS is here. I got a question for all those that "need" a digi connection.......WHY is that a big deal, i have been on this board for a while now and always hear "no digi" in is a deal breaker, or they missed on that but i don't think i have ever read why anyone really needs it.

[yousef]

those that are digging to find reason not to get it are just missing the boat on this one.

I got a question for all those that "need" a digi connection.......WHY is that a big deal, i have been on this board for a while now and always hear "no digi" in is a deal breaker, or they missed on that but i don't think i have ever read why anyone really needs it.

I'm not sure if it's 'digging to find a reason' but I think that money is tight for most at the moment... I've always felt that the best return for money invested in a rig comes with that invested in the mics so I'm always wary of spending elsewhere for what might be a minimal return. Plus, TS is littered with stories of gear that didn't live up to initial promise (or indeed initial user reports), the R-09HR rec level issue being the most recent.

As for the digi-in issue, surely it's simply so that a preferred ADC can be used? Personally, I'd want it for my UA-5 so I could use the one box as phantom supply and pre-amp (and have the option of quick and dirty matrices). Plus I'd be wanting to use it (the digital input) for digital transfers of old DATs.

[ehren]

How many recordings have you made with the internal mics of the Sony M10?

Not one. But unless Sony have managed to alter the laws of physics that pertain to stereo imaging and sound waves' travel through air, I suspect that the internal mics are going to represent a hefty compromise.

But aside from that, surely the option of being able to run your mics at (or above) head height while still being able to monitor/alter levels makes external mics a no-brainer?

I agree with you completely, but I don't think the internal mics take anything away from the M10. I recorded a loud rock band with the internals just for kicks and it came out SURPRISINGLY good. I'll never use the internals for a serious taping situation, but they sound pretty darn good all on their own. Of course the image is zilch, but the box itself offers a lot of quality.