Topic: Help with mics for field music and ambience

[idelgas]

Hello Tapers,

I've been getting tons of incredibly helpful info from ts.com but this is my first time actually posting a question here, so please bear with me.

I'm about to go on a 6-7week job in Colombia where ill be recording interviews, ambiences and most importantly music. Going to very remote places, with little resources  and rough conditions (humidity, heat etc).

The music will be mostly non amplified, but very varied as it is a trip through very different regions. Im expecting a lot of hand drums, voices, flutes, but also stringed instruments in the guitar family and mallet instruments. Some of the stuff will be loud, while other stuff will be very quiet.

So my dilemma is that I need a very diverse setup but light and easy to get going quckly (well be carrying in equipment for hours at some points).

Im going in with a DR680 and a Grace V3, and thinking of getting a couple of DVD batteries, and one of the energizer xp8000s to power those.

My question though finally (and sorry for the long post) is about mics.

Right now I have available to me a 416, a VP88, 3 wireless lavs and a DSM-6S/H binaural pair with the headset setup. Was also considering getting a pair of Soundgrabber PZMs to place below drummers.

Anybody have any thoughts about this? The PZM is kind of a shot in the dark, not sure if anybody has any experience with this. Im concerned about getting a full sound in outdoor environments. And a broad image is important (which is in my mind where the dsms come in).

Again, any suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Although at this point budget is definetly a concern.

Thanks all,

Andres

[John Willett]

For hot and humid portable I would look at the Sennheiser MKH 8000 series.

These are RF condensers that are safe in any conditions.  Also they are very small and easy to carry.

You could go for an ORTF pair of MKH 8040, but I think I would consider a pair of MKH 8020 omnis.  Use a Jecklin Disk between them for a natural recording similar to how a person would hear - or put them on their sides taped to a flat plate to change them into a boundary mic.

[ghellquist]

My two cents. For what they are worth.

As I am in love with some of the equipment I use.

Leave the DR680 and the V3. Get a super reliable 2 channel recorder instead. I like the Sound Devices 702. Getbseveral extra batteries and a separate 12V charger.

For mics, one really good stereo pair and one short shotgun. I like a MKH30 and MKH40 in a stereo Rycote. This will work even in rain and moderate storms. Add the 416.

Always add one or a few simple baclup boxes. One example would be the Sony Pcm m10.

Gunnar

[TNJazz]

It sounds kind of like you're saying "this is what I have, will it suffice?"

The answer is "yes".

I think the variety of mics combined with the Tascam  (6 preamps+2 digital from the V3) will give you a lot of options on placement and mixing in post.

As easy and appealing as Gunnar's suggestion is (2 track mics->recorder) I think you have everything you need to make excellent recordings.  I do agree that it would be wise to bring a second recorder and feed it off the V3 for 2 channels of safety, just in case the Tascam melts in the heat of the rainforest.  I'd focus on the VP88, 416 and the DSMs as my primary microphones and fill the remaining channels with whatever is left.  I would probably use the VP88 into the V3 as my primary setup and use everything else as "spots".

[John Willett]

For mics, one really good stereo pair and one short shotgun. I like a MKH30 and MKH40 in a stereo Rycote. This will work even in rain and moderate storms. Add the 416.

The MKH 30/40 is a good set-up, I have this myself.  The new Rycote stereo kit is perfect for these.  In fact it is my design.  After talking to the designer I experimented with Rycote Lyres in my own windshield (which had the old hoops and rubber O-rings) and found the perfect way to mount them with the new Lyre clips.  Rycote liked it so much that it is now their standard stereo kit - and it's cheaper than the old one as well as being much better.

For the gin, though, I would go for the MKH 60 over the old 416 as it perfectly matches the 40/40 rig in sound quality.

[notlance]

Some of this advice has already been given, but I had a recording job last night before I could reply. 
Anyway, if I was starting from scratch this is what I’d take:

Recorder: Sound Devices 722 or 744T.  These recorders have proven their ruggedness in all types of climates.  They are small and reasonably light weight, with dual media and power.  The 702 is a fine recorder, but if I was a couple of weeks deep in the bush, I’d pay for the dual media 722.  I don’t know how the DR680 will hold up under extreme conditions but personally I would not take the chance.  You don’t need all those channels for the type of expedition you are describing; you are not making a studio recording, you are trying to make an accurate recording.  If you must have more than 2 channels, get the 744T.  Sell the DR680 and buy a 722.  Leave the V3 home, or sell it to finance the 722.  Buy a couple of fresh batteries for the 722, and use them a couple of times before you leave.  Get or make an external battery for the 722.  Perhaps a battery sled that would take 8 or 10 AAs; that way you could buy extra batteries when you need them.

Mics:  I’ll repeat the Sennheiser MKH8020 suggestion.  Small, light, neutral, relatively immune to humidity, and expensive.  Since they are omnis, they will not have proximity effect are will be less susceptible to wind noise.  (If only Sennheiser made an MHK8030 figure-8 mic, you could have a sweet little MS rig.)  Leave the VP88 home.  Take the 416 since it might be useful.  Even though I seem to have an opinion about everything, I don’t have one about the wireless lavs and a DSM-6S/H.  I could see where the binaural pair might be good to have.


Make sure all your cables are in good shape.  I don’t think I’d make or buy new ones, but don’t use really old cables either.  Pick cables that have been used a couple of times and inspect them carefully before you go.  Take several smallish (2, 4 or 8 gig) CF cards that you have already used a couple of times.  Rotate the cards through the recorder so you don’t have everything on a couple of cards.  Don’t record at a sample rate above 48k unless you are going there to record bats.  Record everything you can; more than you think you should.

Yes, my suggestions may be beyond your budget, but that’s what I’d do.

[John Willett]

(If only Sennheiser made an MHK8030 figure-8 mic, you could have a sweet little MS rig.)

It will come, Sennheiser tell me it's in the plan for the system - just no expected date yet.

In the meantime there is the MKH 30 (which is why I suggested the 30/40 rig), or use the new Neumann KK120 + KM-A for a small fig-8 the same colour as the MKH 8000 series (MKH 8000 and the KM-A series can both be used with extension cables to make the mic. rig. very small).

[idelgas]

Thanks for all the info. There's a lot of helpful things for me to keep in mind.

Anybody have any words of caution against using the mkh 30 along with the 416 as an ms rig? would the 416 be too directional for it to really be m/s?

[F.O.Bean]

I would probably use the VP88 into the V3 as my primary setup and use everything else as "spots".

Thats EXACTLY what I was thinking

OR, Id just use the VP88>722. Like someone said, the 7xx units have already proven reliable and rugged, and I LOVE MINE. Def the best money I have ever spent on gear, and I have been thru a Sonosax/V2/V3/M148/Mini-Me and I ALWAYS sold that particular preamp I owned at the time and just kept mics>722

For a different flavor I just got a custom Naiant Littlebox w/ IN/OUT Transformers I'm HOPING I like it as much as my 722 pre's, or it will get sold and I'll be back w/ mics>722 again!

[John Willett]

Thanks for all the info. There's a lot of helpful things for me to keep in mind.

Anybody have any words of caution against using the mkh 30 along with the 416 as an ms rig? would the 416 be too directional for it to really be m/s?

For music I would not use the MKH 30/416 as an MS rig.

If you need the directionality it's best to go for the MKH 30/50 pair.  The 50 is about the same directivity as the 416 at lower frequencies, but as it does not have an interference tube it does not change directivity at higher frequencies and, also, therefore does not have the side lobes or comb-filtering effect of off-axis sound that the 416 has.

[idelgas]

Thanks John, figured as much.

At this point im pretty set on using the dr680 as a recorder,, since theres not enough time for me to do a return and id rather spend money on mics at the moment. Also I will have an edirolr09 and a zoom h4n as backups in case it melts.

Im now focusing on the mic situation, and I think ive narrowed it down to a mkh30/mkh8040 ms rig (thanks to your recommendations) or a sanken css-5. I posted a separate thread about this but if any of you has any thoughts on this let me know

[rastasean]

There are similar threads to this one where people are inquiring what to take to a remote jungle/desert/topical island/war zone to record ambience and music and everybody gives recommendations, but we don't hear back from the person who opened the thread to tell everyone how it went.

After you get back safe and sound, will you let us know how everything worked out and maybe provide some samples?

[F.O.Bean]

There are similar threads to this one where people are inquiring what to take to a remote jungle/desert/topical island/war zone to record ambience and music and everybody gives recommendations, but we don't hear back from the person who opened the thread to tell everyone how it went.

After you get back safe and sound, will you let us know how everything worked out and maybe provide some samples?

So true.....

[John Willett]

Thanks John, figured as much.

At this point im pretty set on using the dr680 as a recorder,, since theres not enough time for me to do a return and id rather spend money on mics at the moment. Also I will have an edirolr09 and a zoom h4n as backups in case it melts.

Im now focusing on the mic situation, and I think ive narrowed it down to a mkh30/mkh8040 ms rig (thanks to your recommendations) or a sanken css-5. I posted a separate thread about this but if any of you has any thoughts on this let me know

The MKH are RF condensers and work well in humid conditions - that's why I would use these over the Sanken - much safer.

However good the Sanken is, it's not an RF condenser - out in the Jungle I would take what is safest.

And the Edirol R-09HR is an excellent back-up machine - it's the only one I know of that has built-in software for file recovery should you have a failure.

[newplanet7]

There are similar threads to this one where people are inquiring what to take to a remote jungle/desert/topical island/war zone to record ambience and music and everybody gives recommendations, but we don't hear back from the person who opened the thread to tell everyone how it went.

After you get back safe and sound, will you let us know how everything worked out and maybe provide some samples?

So true.....