Topic: Tascam DR-680 Questions

[DavidNJ]

Hi!

My area is video, where I use a Canon 7D and mostly Nikon lenses, with a couple of Leicas, lots of grip equipment, etc. My posts there are on Cinema5D.

I've been using two Korg MR-1s with a Deneke PS-2 for phantom power and a E-Mu TrackerPre to record directly to Adobe Audition on a laptop. Mics include a Peluso CEMC6 stereo pair, MXL V63M large condenser, a pair of Nady RSM-5 ribbon mics, Sennheiser ME64/ME66/K6 (which doesn't need phantom power) in a Rode blimp, Voice Tech VT500 lav, and a few others. The TrackerPre works well when using the Canon EOS Utility to control the camera and display the shot on the laptop's screen.

However, one of the Korg MR-1s is broken, again, only this time off warranty. and the TrackerPre lost its headphone output.

The Edirol R44 and Tascam DR-680 surfaced as solutions. The R-44 appears more rugged and compact. However, it is 3 or so year older design, the last firmware update was in 2009 and that was mostly a bug fix release. Further, the R4/R44 seem to be less important products going forward for Roland. By comparison, the DR-680 came out last year, and the December firmware release added significant functionality. It appears to be taking the lead spot in Tascam's portable field recorders, a market Tascam is very active in.

Now the questions:

   1)  Can an single input be mapped to multiple tracks with different gain? Specifically, this is to let a track be recorded comfortably below clipping to fix problems in post. The Marantz  661 has this (Mono-D, 20db lower) and I think the Tascam DR-2 (dual recording, 12db lower).  If the answer is no, can the mix track be used?
   
   2) Are the outputs live without recording? Reading the manual, it looks like the Pause bottom arms recording and then the tracks have to be selected. Does that send their output out?
   
   3) Is there a way to connect a lav or other mic with a 3.5mm jack that requires 5v power? If not, I think I have a battery powered adapter, however that is additional cabling complexity and another thing to go wrong.
   
   4) Can the digital output be fed to a computer? I'm thinking the mix to the digital out to a USB box that takes S/PDIF input. Is there any other way to connect it?
   
   5) Are the switches on top easily accidently activated?
   
   6) Is the Tascam case best or is there a better option? Does the Tascam case work ok with the cables? Does it have a battery access door?
   
   7) Does this recorder have a lot of plastic for this price level? Does it hold up?
   
   8) Initial owners reports several hardware problems. Have those problems been eradicated?
   
Thanks,

David

[acidjack]

IMHO unless you NEED 6 channels (forget its mythical claims that it can do 8; I've now owned 3 of these and have given up even trying to assign one of its non-functional digital inputs to the MIX channel) you are much better off with the Edirol.  Yes, the Edirol is older, but technologically there is nothing the 680 does that it can't; the only thing the 680 does better is that the USB transfer to computer goes faster.

The R-44 is a second generation product, meaning Roland discovered everything that was wrong with the R-4, then built a better unit.  The 680 is new and untested.  In time, Tascam may develop a more mature 6 or quasi-8 channel deck, but this won't be it.  As you can see from reading threads about the 680, several of us have had problems with them that have been pretty serious, and even for those who haven't had problems, the unit is "quirky" to use in a way that the R-44 is not. 

I think the switches on top are not ideal; they are not as recessed as they are on the Edirol, and there are more of them due to the unnecessary MIC/LINE distinction made. 

Feel-wise, yes, I think it feels less solid.  The R-44 is plastic, too, but more rigid plastic.  Also has (I think) a cleaner, better display. 

Now on my third unit, the digital input will not work with a firmware-updated SD USDpre2 or, at last attempt, the S/PDIF output of an R-44. 

Lots of guys here are happy with them, and I commend Tascam customer service for going out of their way to work on my deck.  But if I had known when I bought the thing what I know now, I would not have bought it, and I continue to use my R-44 as my exclusive deck unless I really need 2 more channels.

[hi and lo]

I mostly agree with Acidjack, whom I share ownership of said deck with. Two decks were essentially DOA (failing after ~5 uses on the first and truly DOA on the 2nd) and on all three decks and we have yet to successfully record anything on the digital input. The third deck is running well thus far for channels 1-6.

To my knowledge, it will not do multi-track recording on a single input at various recording levels (like the dr-2d).

The top switches worry me and there are too many of them, but so far we have not had any accidents.

Naiant can probably build you a PFA to power a 5v lav mic via 48v phantom.

I've not tried feeding the digi out to a computer or other deck.

In terms of build quality, the plastic doesn't bother me too much, but could be an issue if dropped. For the cost, it's pretty much in line with what I would expect.

For the purposes you've described, I cannot recommend the 680. It's overkill and doesn't have all the specific features you've stated. However, I do recommend it for 4-6 channel recording and plenty of users have had no issues recording a full 8 channels via the digital input. This unit has its place, but also its quirks. There may be something better on the market for your needs.

[Gutbucket]

Hi David,
(hi and low answered most of your questions while I was typing.. so some duplcation below)

I own and use both an R44 and DR680 (and DR2d).  Both have worked very well for me.  I'll try and answer your questions and add some of my own insights.

1)  Can an single input be mapped to multiple tracks with different gain? Specifically, this is to let a track be recorded comfortably below clipping to fix problems in post. The Marantz  661 has this (Mono-D, 20db lower) and I think the Tascam DR-2 (dual recording, 12db lower).  If the answer is no, can the mix track be used?

No.  DR2d can do this (not limited to only -12dB, you can choose from several level differences). You can route a copy of two tracks to the mix track via the monitor section, panned hard Left and Right, but that doesn't really do what you want as an input level safety because if the primary channel clips the mix will too, and if input gain on the primary channel is set deliberately low any gain addition made for the mix channel is done after analog-digital conversion in the digital realm.
   
2) Are the outputs live without recording? Reading the manual, it looks like the Pause bottom arms recording and then the tracks have to be selected. Does that send their output out?   

Only the digital input (which I just discovered last night).  All analog inputs require the recorder to be in rec/pause and the track in question armed to pass signal through to the output. The output is selectable, with a choice of either individual channels or the stereo monitor mix.

3) Is there a way to connect a lav or other mic with a 3.5mm jack that requires 5v power? If not, I think I have a battery powered adapter, however that is additional cabling complexity and another thing to go wrong.

For 5V mics like lavs I prefer to use phantom power adapters from Niant (owner is a member here).  His PFA adapters are built into XLRs that plug directly into the recorder inputs, come in sets of two, work great without extra battery worries and are inexpensive.  I use these with both the R44 and DR680 and recommend them highly.  They can have either a 3.5mm input jack(s) or mini-XLR(s) on the mic side.
   
4) Can the digital output be fed to a computer? I'm thinking the mix to the digital out to a USB box that takes S/PDIF input. Is there any other way to connect it?

Sure, that works, the other 'real time' transfer method would be using the analog outputs like older analog gear. Most users simply transfer the files to the computer by using the USB connection for file transfer or taking the card out and putting it into a card reader.
   
5) Are the switches on top easily accidently activated?
   
More easily than I would like, (and like aj mentions above, more easily than on the R44)

6) Is the Tascam case best or is there a better option? Does the Tascam case work ok with the cables? Does it have a battery access door?

Access to all ports and doors, it's small and protects the machine only, no problem with cables.  I use it in combination with a larger bag that can hold the recorder and the necessary extra gear.
    
7) Does this recorder have a lot of plastic for this price level? Does it hold up?

Typical construction for it's price level.  Actually it has no competitors at this price with the same features.  R44 is closest and similar.
   
8 ) Initial owners reports several hardware problems. Have those problems been eradicated?   

I've had no issues as have many others, including using the digital input (output from the R44).  Some have had problems and expressed concerns about Tascam's service department and handling of warrantee issues.  It seems like Tascam payed attention and has stepped up to take care of most(?) of those after the recent problems thread bloomed here, but I haven't really kept track.  Other's such as aj have had less than rosey experiences and are understandibly soured somewhat.

I like both the R-44 and the DR680.  If all you need is 4 tracks total without more advanced features like the ability to pan each channel output to the monitor section or the ability to 'link channel gains' across sets of inputs to keep gains identical and adjustable as a group, the R44 is slighlty smaller, simpler to use, generally less complex and very well tested and liked by users.  If you need more than 4 channels or some of those other features, the DR-680 offers that.

[Chuck]

IMHO unless you NEED 6 channels (forget its mythical claims that it can do 8; I've now owned 3 of these and have given up even trying to assign one of its non-functional digital inputs to the MIX channel) you are much better off with the Edirol. 

I disagree with this. I use an Edirol UA-5 to get 8 channels recorded on my DR-680

The top switches worry me and there are too many of them, but so far we have not had any accidents.

I have a pet-peeve about those top switches. They do move. At least the way I use my DR-680.
I frequently have to re-set those switches after carrying the DR-680 around in my bag.
I'm probably going to make a cover that will prevent that from happening soon.

[Gutbucket]

IMHO unless you NEED 6 channels (forget its mythical claims that it can do 8; I've now owned 3 of these and have given up even trying to assign one of its non-functional digital inputs to the MIX channel) you are much better off with the Edirol. 

I disagree with this. I use an Edirol UA-5 to get 8 channels recorded on my DR-680

The top switches worry me and there are too many of them, but so far we have not had any accidents.

I have a pet-peeve about those top switches. They do move. At least the way I use my DR-680.
I frequently have to re-set those switches after carrying the DR-680 around in my bag.
I'm probably going to make a cover that will prevent that from happening soon.

Same. The case does help with this as it covers them, the only time I have an opportunity to accidentally switch them in my use is when reaching in to access the power button or the phantom switches.

As mentioned I've also done 8 channels several times on the DR-680 using digital in from the R-44, duplicating two R44 channels for 10 total.

[rastasean]

I like both the R-44 and the DR680.  If all you need is 4 tracks total without more advanced features like the ability to pan each channel output to the monitor section or the ability to 'link channel gains' across sets of inputs to keep gains identical and adjustable as a group, the R44 is slighlty smaller, simpler to use, generally less complex and very well tested and liked by users.  If you need more than 4 channels or some of those other features, the DR-680 offers that.

Something I would like the Naiant innovations to create is a line level box that would allow panning similar to the dr680. Inputs would be XLR and there would be several knobs but it wouldn't be possible to link them.
Unfortunately, there are many other projects cooking in Jon's brain to worry about something like this; however, if there were more interest  he may change his mind.
 Back before Jon had such a great reputation, he was able to make something like this: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=111151.msg1484722#msg1484722

[bobbygeeWOW]

Not sure I really have anything to add here except that I'm another user who uses digi input every single time I use the unit - routed to either channels 5+6 or 7+8 depending on what I'm doing. Multitracking including two digi tracks has never presented a problem.

I recently ran four consecutive 12-hour days in beating sun and pouring rain with a cd burner tracking analog outputs that originated on the digi inputs routed via 5+6.

While I'd prefer the top buttons weren't there, or were better made or something, they've never been accidentally changed.
Not really sure how they could get moved without the deck or something else rattling around quite a bit.. ?
I just have flat, padded surface on that side.
There's also a software "lock" feature to help prevent this while powered up, though I don't use it.

For build quality, it certainly is plastic and that's why I have a padded case for it.
Bottom line there's nothing else at that price point with that feature set.
Beats the hell out of a laptop rig for what I do.


 -Cheers!

[DavidNJ]

Thanks for the input.

The Roland R44 is $995 new; I saw one for $675 on ebay but missed it during my period of indecision.

Musician's Friend had the DR-680 for $650 as their one day 'Stupid Deal of the Day' last week, for one day, but missed it. However, right now, it is $687.65 with their 4th of July sale (15%). The out of stock R44 does not appear to be covered by the sale; if it was it would be $845.75. A three year warranty extension with accidental damage is an extra $99.

The Naiant for the lav is $35.

So the question is a new DR-680 better than a used R44 for a similar price? Does the warranty mitigate the product risk? Were the problems with recent units (2011) or original units (2010)?

The inability to deal with clipping is an issue. How do you handle it? ADR is pretty limited if you don't have ongoing access to the talent.

The least expensive solution used in the video world is the nearly ubiquitous Zoom H4n ($300). I doubt that unit is popular here. The DR-100 with power adapter is $360. These are both two channel units and I doubt the mic preamps are as good as the DR-680. Two (4-channels) would be nearly as expensive as a single DR-680 and be a lot more work on set.

In another thread I posted info about the Roland Quad-Capture UA-55, a 4 channel( 2-xlr) USB computer interface. It has some really slick software controlling the DSP's on the unit. While I can't speak for Roland, I'd venture that the internals for two of the units could be combined with a recorder to an SDHD and a touch screen LCD to make an R44 replacement. That unit could even have a USB feed as an option. If I was the Roland product manager, that is where I'd be heading leveraging the hardware and software design work already done. My guess is that is what they are doing and it would be 2012 release.

So...net: $688 for an DR-680, $995 for an R44, or try to find a used R44 for around $700 (+/-$50)?

[hi and lo]

It really doesn't sound like you will need 6 (or quasi channels, so I have to say the R44 will be a better option due to it's easy of use and durability vs. the 680.

With 24 bit recording, you can run levels extremely conservatively and/or use a limiter (the 680s is actually pretty good). Personally, I see zero need for dual recording levels.

[bobbygeeWOW]

I run with -12db for average peak levels at 24-bit.
That pretty much covers the clipping problem.
If its does happen I fix it in post.

One way I just thought of that might get you dual levels on a 680 might be to record your mics into a pair of channels from 1-6 and then also record your stereo mix channel at a lower level... or visa versa, run the mics low and boost the stereo mix (?)
I don't use the mix feature so I don't know if you can even set levels on it.

Can't comment on durability as a limiting factor since mine has withstood all sorts of stuff.
Not sure if its really is a given that all units are potential DOA arrivals...

[acidjack]

I just want to thank you for realizing that we would hate the Zoom H4n    Oh, how I hate that thing, and many of the obnoxious people I run into using it.

but back on topic, look, as one of the most anti-680 people on here, I can tell you three things:

1. I've owned three of them, none of them have worked 100% properly.  All are 2011 brand-new units.
2. Tascam's service has been good... they've gone out of their way to try and help even though they have failed to deliver a product that completely works.  I'm sure if I felt like investing any more time in the deck I could get them to figure out why the Sound Devices USBpre2 won't connect to it, even after the recommended firmware upgrades.
3. So on balance, if you don't need 6 channels, the Edirol is a better unit, but the 680 is cheaper but doesn't give you any additional functionality. As long as you are careful about how you power it (certain power supplies will fry it), pad it carefully in a bag (again, although I knock the construction, I run it in a gear bag, and cannot imagine breaking it in there unless the bag takes a very solid whack), and aren't absolutely relying on the digital input working reliably and properly, maybe it's worth saving the dough.  We paid $800 for ours; at $650 it is a very, very solid price.

I think hi and lo also mentioned the 4-channel DR2D.  Does that not do what you're looking for because of the lack of XLR inputs (a legitimate consideration)?

[DavidNJ]

The lack of XLRs was a problem I thought I could manage with my Korg MR-1s...I was wrong. It is a huge pain.

I'd be getting the Tascam case. That would travel in a foam attache for bigger shoots (travel in the Suburban) or by itself for small shoots (one camera bag, one mic case, the recorder, and maybe a tripod).

I'm thinking the $99 three year with accidental damage coverage warranty pretty much has be covered. Within 45 days I could return it. Other than size, it seems like 2/3 DR-100s with better pre-amps.

[kirk97132]

I'll chime in as one of the happy 680 users.  And I also run it as an 8 track deck a lot along with the USBPre2.  Not sure why AJ is having a spdif issue once they did the fix originally everything worked great for me.  The switchs on top...I have never noticed them getting bumpped accidnetally and I think they are recessed enough with tight enough feel that you do not trip them unless you mean to.  Routing signal out of the 680 does require it to be in pause/rec but it will hold thar forever.  Spdif out is hot too at that point.  Good preamps.  But I do run a variety of preamps in front if it depending on situation or mics.  I'd endorse the deck. I know that there are a few who have had problems.  If it were me having problems I'd probably feel the same but the deck ahs been great to me.  Yes it's plastic.  I can't say the R-44 is "better" plastic.  I've owned both.  The R-44 is very easy to use. The 680 has a little learning curve. 

[Gutbucket]

There are different features between R44 and DR680, but they may or may not matter to you.  The ones that I actually use and make a difference for me are:

1) R44 has EQ, DR680 does not (I don't use this for recording although you can if you want to, but find it useful sometimes when playing back using the machine)
In the same vein R-44 has other 'effects' beside EQ well, but I never use them.  Both have reverb, which I never use.
2) DR680 has the channel linking function and digital control over gain, which was a primary feature for my use with the Tetramic and a big motivation for my dcecision to buy one (matching gains exactly to the dB on teh R44 was clumsy and a big hassle)

I should mention that on the DR680, the lock button can be configured to lock just the top panel, just the front panel, or both.  I set it to lock just the top panel to keep from accidentally switching the top switches, while still being able to record, pause, stop and adjust gain, etc, but find I rarely use it.

To avoid overload, set levels low or activate the limiter.  The metering on both machines is marginal, but work fine for confirming signal, relative level, and checking for overload.  At least the R44 has dB scale numbers next to the bar display.  The DR680 has no numeric indication at all, just a single line across all channel bars of the display that indicates -18dBFS.  Works for me to simply shoot for that line.  Unsure what the ballistics are on the meter, but it seems more VU than PPM, so leaving room for peaks is good.