Topic: Ideal Setup (Esp. to get bass frequencies)

[RoganSarine]

Hey guys,

I'm using a PCM-10 and (soon-to-be) CA14's with a CA9200. However, I have been using CA11's for awhile. I am unsure if it's the microphone placement, or if the CA11's have trouble picking up bass frequencies.

Anyway, every show I do I can openly tape and I have free-reign of positioning (just sometimes the crowd can get rowdy, so I gotta adjust accordingly).

I was firstly wondering if it was just my CA11's having poor bass response, or if it's my atrocious mic positioning. If the later, can you guys make any recommendations of how to get a good, full mix? I was never too fluent in the taping jargon.

[newplanet7]

First I have never used CA mics but have heard may great shows taped with them.
We have a church audio thread or 70, around here.
Team Church: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=125420.360
It's a great thing that you have free reign over the environment. Couple of questions for ya:

-What kind of music? Instrumental, rock, the devils music    ?
-What is your current attempt at mic configuration? DIN, ORTF, XY, AB,? These are just the standard techniques that most of us run or have run at some point
-You ever seen a grown man naked?
-Is there plenty of bass while the show is happening?
-The pre, CA 9200, I believe has several switches in the battery compartment. One for roll-off. Is it possible that that switch is engaged?

It's always a good thing to read up on the "taping jargon".  There are hundreds of great answers here on ts gathered though trial and error.
Here is a great site explaining configuration JARGON and all its glory.
DPA microphone university for stereo mic set-ups.
http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/Mic-University/StereoTechniques.aspx

[RoganSarine]

1) The music ranges from folk to metal - primarily focusing around "rock" of some kind. It varies, but it's usually amped and loud.

2) I generally do a DIN setup, but I have done ORTF once or twice.

3) I have seen myself naked. My mommy says I'm a man!

4) Yeah, tons in certain cases. Generally, I swear my heart is skipping beats.

5) It's not engaged.

After reading that site on mic positioning, I think that the problem comes from the positioning entirely. I assume I am too far from the speaker, but the speakers are also normally fairly wide apart. So, I don't know exactly how my positioning should work.

[newplanet7]

Ha ha! Was hoping that you would get that Airplane reference and I wouldn't look like a sketchball.
So on the positioning, what do you see as the problem with the physical set-up? Is this a club with a speaker stack on each side of the stage?

[RoganSarine]

Primarily, I've just tried a bunch of options and I havn't ever gotten a nice full sound from my microphones.

Generally, the speakers are actually roof mounted, pointed downward - being generally 3-4 meters in the air. They are also about 4-7 meters apart. In a lot of cases, there is a large crowd infront of the stage, sometimes moshing (even to music you wouldn't think people would mosh too).

These two things are my primary obstacles. I have never quite understood the best positioning for my microphones in terms of distance from the speakers, and where in relation to both speakers they would be. Do I only bother trying to mic one twelve feet away with a ORTF setup?

It's kind of hard for me to even fathom what to suggest because I've tried several setups and have never got a nice well-rounded sound in terms of high frequencies mixed with low frequencies - I always get one or the other.

[achalsey]

Generally speaking the best place for you mics to be is at the dead middle of the two speakers, about as far back as they are spaced from each other.  IE at the tip of an equilateral triangle with the speakers being the other two points.

If you're at a decent sized club I don't think stack taping would be the way to go, especially if you're running totally open.  If you can get to the "sweet spot" mentioned above and there aren't any significant obstacles (running up against a wall, too close to bar, anything in front of you) I'd trying running as high as possible (unless there's a low ceiling then keep some distance from that) and see how it turns out.  If the venue is big enough and the sweet spot is still in the possibly moshing crowd just try going further back until the crowd thins out a bit.

What venues are you generally taping at?  I'm sort of assuming you haven't seen any other tapers there from what it sounds like, but someone might have been there and have some insight.  Also there's a venue info thread you might want to browse to see if anyone's written anything about them in the past:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?board=32.0

[RoganSarine]

High as possible, huh? I try to run a half foot to a foot above peoples heads (despite, sometime, when I use a multi-camera setup and my friend thinks I'm crazy for telling him to put it up so high and he drops it while I work the cameras) because of how the speakers are pointed down

There's one venue where there are like 5 metres apart. At the sweet spot, the speakers are blocked by two support pillars. How would you suggest getting around this?

2) Theoretically, speaking, the sweet spot wouldn't be "so far back that the bass would be lost"? I've sworn I've tried this, but horrible room acoustics (bouncing audio from flat surfaces, I assume) is always what I've blamed it on. The last person to tape in my town (according to the venue info) was like 2002 (My god!).

3) Currently, the problem of my "mosh" scenario is primarily what I'm mounting the speakers on - which is the stupidest ghetto contraption ever. I'm using a boom microphone pole rigged with a 20 cm metal disk to get the 17-20 cm seperation. The problem? It's got a 3 legged tripod base which, people can trip over no matter how much we barricade it. A shockmount system from drunken slight nudges would be nice, or a collapsible pole with a weighted, rounded base I think would be nice, but I don't know where I'd start rigging something like this with CA14's.

[newplanet7]

I am not really sure sure if it's your CA-11's or positioning. I'm pretty sure based on the amount of people using CA gear that his stuff wouldn't be getting rave
reviews and being used so much if it was the gear. So I am opting here to go with the venue sound and configuration reasoning.
The fact that you state the venue sound from where you tape from has plenty of low-end leaves one more thing to tinker with.
Location and mic configuration are oh so veryimportant IMO for getting a great balanced capture.

First, try getting centered and don't hug the front so much. You won't be micing the one speaker stack unless you are right up against it. And in this case, if you have free reign of the place, find that center spot. I'm also assuming you are running high enough?
If the mosh pit is troubling for you, make some friends by offering a copy of said recording for that persons blocking skills.
Also, This is a hobby and a fun thing for you I'm assuming. Try one configuration for either: a few tunes, an opening band, a first set etc. But make sure you write down
where/when you switched up the positioning. When I first started taping it was DIN 'til I die. Then I went ORTF for the sound-stage and felt it captured the low-end better. Not I just make up my own stuff. Some things work, others work less to achieve the balance.

The reason I love this hobby is because  in the environment you are in, you have total freedom to try different things.
Hell I would even try running onstage. You should get plenty of bass up there. Ya know, experiment. Throw everything out but take some notes or have good memory.
I experiment all the time still. Usually change configuration/spacing/polar pattern during set breaks.
Hell I run onstage for bands with vocals, which is usually a no-no. I have come away with great results
A few months back I ran split omnis onstage split about two feet. Switched it up for second set and ran the healy method. Ya know what, I loved the way the first set sounded with the split omnis a shit-ton more than the second set healy method.
Point being I am still learning what I like and what methods get me to that place by experimenting.

[newplanet7]

Ha! Didn't see you responded to the other post.
First off, get high enough so that chatting and crowd are LESS of an issue. I've heard tapes where
people have run too low but that usually has the sound of muddied lower frequencies, which isn't your case.


Also the support beams that interfere with the centering, do you have a clamp system you could use on the beam?
Christ, where are you from where the last taper to roll through was 2002? Alaska?   

[RoganSarine]

Ha! Didn't see you responded to the other post.
First off, get high enough so that chatting and crowd are LESS of an issue. I've heard tapes where
people have run too low but that usually has the sound of muddied lower frequencies, which isn't your case.


Also the support beams that interfere with the centering, do you have a clamp system you could use on the beam?
Christ, where are you from where the last taper to roll through was 2002? Alaska?   

They are more like support pillars - vertical.

I really wish I could just buy a stand and clamp rig from someone, ha ha. Finding something that I like is such a pain (something that's really collapsible).

And, actually, no which is why I'm surprised as hell... I'm like the only one who doesn't SBD in my area.

[yates7592]

Hey guys,

I'm using a PCM-10 and (soon-to-be) CA14's with a CA9200. However, I have been using CA11's for awhile. I am unsure if it's the microphone placement, or if the CA11's have trouble picking up bass frequencies.

Anyway, every show I do I can openly tape and I have free-reign of positioning (just sometimes the crowd can get rowdy, so I gotta adjust accordingly).

I was firstly wondering if it was just my CA11's having poor bass response, or if it's my atrocious mic positioning. If the later, can you guys make any recommendations of how to get a good, full mix? I was never too fluent in the taping jargon.

Are your CA mics cards or omni's? I have used the CA14 cards and whilst they are great little mics the bass response is on the low side (as with a lot of cards)

[RoganSarine]

Are your CA mics cards or omni's? I have used the CA14 cards and whilst they are great little mics the bass response is on the low side (as with a lot of cards)

Cards. Since I'm normally taping within clubs with bars and raised speakers, Omni's are pretty hard to be usable.

[yltfan]

Since you are open taping, why not try some bigger mics, which should have a bigger bass response? Get a preamp with phantom power, or pick up a pair of Nak cm-300 mics (which are powered by internal batteries).

[SmokinJoe]

A couple of points to ponder...

1) I had CA-11 (or STC-11 which I believe are the same) cards for a while.  I wouldn't go so far as to say they have poor bass response, but I definitely wouldn't call them bass heavy (thumpy or muddy).  Depending on your expectation/preferences, I can see someone thinking they are a little on the thin side.  If you are expecting to reproduce the original "unz, unz, unz" of dance club music, that's probably not realistic.

2) A lot of clubs have a big row of subwoofers along the front of the stage.  If there is a wall of people squeezed up against that, and your mics are back a ways, I've seen cases where recordings are less bassy than I expected.  I assume it's simply the bodies between you and the subwoofers block that low frequency energy.

3) In addition to the roll off in the CA9200, there is a low cut filter in the M10 menu I believe.  That's turned off, right?

4) Are you running the preamp Line-in to the M10, or mic-in?  Whichever, try it the other way some time for an opening set, see if it gets better or worse.  I can't remember the details, but there is this potential issue with impedance mismatch that tends to act as an automatic/unintentional bass rolloff.  I'm not sure this is your issue at all, but it's worth a simple test.

ylt, I'm not sure I would draw a conclusion that larger capsules capture deeper bass.  That's true with speakers, but not with mics.  It's a different set of physics.

[yltfan]

ylt, I'm not sure I would draw a conclusion that larger capsules capture deeper bass.  That's true with speakers, but not with mics.  It's a different set of physics.

True, and I should not have made that correlation. But since Rogan is open taping, why not check out some other mics that are known to pick up more low end?