Topic: Recorder Upgrade??

[celtic]

Hi,

I've been taping shows for about a year now. So still a newbie I guess. In that time I taped about a 12 bands/gigs. I've been using a Zoom h1 recorder with a SP Battery box and CA14 Card mics. I know have a church battery box to go with church mics. The recordings I got so far are pretty good. My question is, if I was to upgrade my Zoom H1 recorder to say a Tascam DR2D or a sony M10 would it make any real difference to my recordings or is the quality of all concert recordings really down to the mic quality and position when recording? Any advice would be very much appreciated.

[adrianf74]

Hi,

I've been taping shows for about a year now. So still a newbie I guess. In that time I taped about a 12 bands/gigs. I've been using a Zoom h1 recorder with a SP Battery box and CA14 Card mics. I know have a church battery box to go with church mics. The recordings I got so far are pretty good. My question is, if I was to upgrade my Zoom H1 recorder to say a Tascam DR2D or a sony M10 would it make any real difference to my recordings or is the quality of all concert recordings really down to the mic quality and position when recording? Any advice would be very much appreciated.

If you're running line-in, I'd almost say there's little difference per-se with the gear you're using.  Preference-wise, I'm happier with the M10 than I ever was with the Edirol (Roland) R-09 (not HR) that it replaced.   The M10 is a very solid piece of equipment that has never given me problems with the clock (as some people have reported).

[spyder9]

Go to www.archive.org and let your ears make the choice.  These recorders have enough samples up there to choose from.  Our opinions mean nothing.

[hi and lo]

If you're running line-in, I'd almost say there's little difference per-se with the gear you're using...

I disagree. See here for some amateur tests of input noise with the H1 and here for mic input noise figures of the H2. Take these measurement results with a grain of salt, but after two minutes to research it becomes rather obvious that the Zoom inputs are about as bad as any recorder available. Even more disturbing is the very poor performance of the H1 when used at lower gain ranges, like one might use in a concert recording situation.

The M10 is far superior in terms of noise performance to any Zoom recorder. This might not matter too much when recording amplified music, but we're literally talking about the best and worst in-class performers and that difference will be noticeable in many situations, I think.

[celtic]

Thanks for the info guys.

The thing I really like about the Zoom H1 is that it is very easy to use. What is the Sony m10 like to use? I guess because its alot more expensive it has a lot more settings and options.

[su6oxone]

The thing I really like about the Zoom H1 is that it is very easy to use. What is the Sony m10 like to use? I guess because its alot more expensive it has a lot more settings and options.

The m10 is a great recorder.  Very easy to use, nice big screen, useful LED indicator lights for each channel (green for above -6dB red for clipping), nice solid build quality, very reliable, low noise, and fantastic battery life (best in class probably).  If you're not planning on upgrading your mics anytime soon, then upgrading recorders to the m10 would make sense. The only real issues with the m10 are the non-lockable gain/level dial (not so much of an issue unless you're keeping it in a pocket while taping) and the clock issue (see the m10 thread about that, but also more of an inconvenience than a significant issue). 

[bryonsos]

The dial is pretty firm, and it has a "bridge" over it, so it won't move too easily. Nothing a small piece of gaff tape couldn't fix/prevent for pocket use.

[ScoobieKW]

The thing I really like about the Zoom H1 is that it is very easy to use. What is the Sony m10 like to use? I guess because its alot more expensive it has a lot more settings and options.

The m10 is a great recorder.  Very easy to use, nice big screen, useful LED indicator lights for each channel (green for above -6dB red for clipping), nice solid build quality, very reliable, low noise, and fantastic battery life (best in class probably).  If you're not planning on upgrading your mics anytime soon, then upgrading recorders to the m10 would make sense. The only real issues with the m10 are the non-lockable gain/level dial (not so much of an issue unless you're keeping it in a pocket while taping) and the clock issue (see the m10 thread about that, but also more of an inconvenience than a significant issue).

Minor correction. The M10 lights tickle green at -12dB not -6dB. The M10 is easy to use, has amazing battery life with 15 hours from 2AA batteries. I used an Zoom H2 from work when I first started taping, but much prefer my M10. (The Zoom H2 that my company owns doesn't get used as the boss thinks it's a piece of crap.)

[F.O.Bean]

Just trust us and get an M10 I love them so much I have 2 of them

[stevetoney]

I'm gonna dissent from the suggestions that have been made so far. 

Question for you...has self noise been an issue for you with the zoom and the recordings you've made this far? 

If so, by all means heed the suggestions provided above. 

However im betting you never even knew self noise might be an issue on these before reading this thread otherwise you'd probably have avoided the zoom in the first place.  Since you're probably recording loud shows, im almost positive you'll never hear a difference between a digital recording made on a zoom vs an m10.  the only exception is if you record low volume shows this may not be true.

So I disagree with everyone else.. I think your better path to sound improvement is to focus on better mics or ensuring you are in the very best possible location in the venue.

[dallman]

I'm gonna dissent from the suggestions that have been made so far. 

Question for you...has self noise been an issue for you with the zoom and the recordings you've made this far? 

If so, by all means heed the suggestions provided above. 

However im betting you never even knew self noise might be an issue on these before reading this thread otherwise you'd probably have avoided the zoom in the first place.  Since you're probably recording loud shows, im almost positive you'll never hear a difference between a digital recording made on a zoom vs an m10.  the only exception is if you record low volume shows this may not be true.

So I disagree with everyone else.. I think your better path to sound improvement is to focus on better mics or ensuring you are in the very best possible location in the venue.

I second this! Mics will make a much bigger difference. You can get a fine recording with a zoom. Yes there may be better recorders, but in the situation you describe, I agree with Steve above.

[ScoobieKW]

I'm gonna dissent from the suggestions that have been made so far. 

Question for you...has self noise been an issue for you with the zoom and the recordings you've made this far? 

If so, by all means heed the suggestions provided above. 

However im betting you never even knew self noise might be an issue on these before reading this thread otherwise you'd probably have avoided the zoom in the first place.  Since you're probably recording loud shows, im almost positive you'll never hear a difference between a digital recording made on a zoom vs an m10.  the only exception is if you record low volume shows this may not be true.

So I disagree with everyone else.. I think your better path to sound improvement is to focus on better mics or ensuring you are in the very best possible location in the venue.

I second this! Mics will make a much bigger difference. You can get a fine recording with a zoom. Yes there may be better recorders, but in the situation you describe, I agree with Steve above.

Yes, get the best mics you can afford, put them in the best sounding spot you can and you'll get a great recording even with a cassette deck.

That said, reliability, build quality, battery life, self-noise and supported bit/sample rates are all good reasons to eventually upgrade from the Zoom.

[celtic]

Self noise is not something I would really have been aware of to be honest. From what I've read and the responses you guys have given I think the major difference between the Zoom H1 and the M10 is Battery Life & Build quality and also less self noise. I think I might stick with my Zoom for another while.
Off topic, regards the best possible location for taping in a venue, do you guys have any suggestions for both small and large venues. I've been taping mostly front of board, dead centre with mixed results. There is a recording of mine here http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=387980, let me know what you guys think, taped from the seats in an arena with a capcity of about 10,000. Thanks again for the responses folks.

[hi and lo]

Sorry to disagree with Steve, who does give most excellent advice, but I think you have every reason in the world to ditch the Zoom. The difference in self-noise performance is > +20dB depending on which measurement sources you refer to. That's by no means a minor difference and I think it speaks volumes about the overall quality of the Zoom unit. Self-noise if just one measurement of many and I would say with high confidence that an upgrade to the M10 will be better in so many aspects beyond just self-noise. Not sure what you can get for a Zoom on the used market, but the M10 is quite affordable, especially here in the US. A bit more expensive across the pond, but still not a bank breaker.

[earmonger]

Is the Zoom noise problem through mic inputs or line inputs? Because it seems that the OP is going mics-->battbox-->line-in.  Which might be another reason to stay with the Zoom for a while.

Regardless, I love my PCM-M10 too and it is no more difficult to use than the Zoom. The settings, if you need to change the defaults, are something you'd probably change once--I have never gone into a settings menu during a show. It's got a nice simple remote. Battery life, build quality have been praised by others. And if you're going to a show that doesn't like tapers, the PCM-M10 looks to the guards like a point-and-shoot camera, not a recorder (or electric razor), because of the recessed mics. One guard warned me not to use the flash.

OP also asked about mic placement. My first choice is generally near the soundboard, because the guys in the sound booth are probably using their own ears to gauge the mix. If you aren't stuck in a seat, though, you should use your ears. Let the opening act be your soundcheck unless you love them too. Move to various locations, close your eyes to eliminate visual cues and see what you like. 

Places to usually avoid: right up close to the stage. The PA is pointing over your head, not where you can hear it,  and while your mics may be able to pick up the stage monitors, the vocals you think you are hearing are probably a combination of lip-reading and your memory of the song. Also, under balconies is usually a bad spot--boosts the bass, muffles the highs.

Every room is different. If you go to a place in your hometown regularly, you should be able find its sweet spot(s) pretty soon.

And get away from people who talk because the best sounding spot in the room is bad with a conversation going there.