Topic: 32Bit Float recording - The Technical view

[Gutbucket]

I'll keep staging my gain the old fashioned way using 24 bit.

I've stuck with that too so far.  It does everything I need.  That said, I don't expect this particular issue would be problematic for my use and what/how I record if I were to use a recorder which does multiple ADC switching. 

The tl;dr of my post yesterday about the deeper fundamental issue: An audio recorder for music is not the same as a data-logger.

[carpa]

I am pretty sure that Zoom F series, and probably also SD, are still using multi ADC in 24 or 16 bit mode.  IF anything can be done by Zoom it could be either: 1) allow a single ADC functioning when set to 24 bits mode or  2) provide a "smoother transition"between ADC with a sort of noise reduction or whatever they can figure out.
I have no technical knowledge to imagine any solution, but the posted YouTube video description it seems that Sound Devices has pretty fixed the issue with a firmware upgrade, so it is in theory possible to do something?

[unidentified]

Since I am not recording water droplets and can hear absolutely no trace of noise during live music transitions, I will continue using my F3s  with their great pre-amps and leave gain staging in my past along with my past fears of not demagnetizing my cassette deck heads often enough (or too often) or burning out my clutch in shifting my gears too hastily.  YMMV

[voltronic]

I am pretty sure that Zoom F series, and probably also SD, are still using multi ADC in 24 or 16 bit mode.  IF anything can be done by Zoom it could be either: 1) allow a single ADC functioning when set to 24 bits mode or  2) provide a "smoother transition"between ADC with a sort of noise reduction or whatever they can figure out.
I have no technical knowledge to imagine any solution, but the posted YouTube video description it seems that Sound Devices has pretty fixed the issue with a firmware upgrade, so it is in theory possible to do something?

This point is addressed in the video. All of these recorders that have multiple ADCs still have all of them in the signal path even if you are reporting in 24-bit fixed mode.

Your possible solution #2 is what I understand Sound Devices did in their fix. I don't think we should assume the same will be possible in Zoom recorders. Not because of the different number of ADCs, but because the DSP hardware and software is likely to be significantly different between the two manufacturers.

[grawk]

This point is addressed in the video. All of these recorders that have multiple ADCs still have all of them in the signal path even if you are reporting in 24-bit fixed mode.

Your possible solution #2 is what I understand Sound Devices did in their fix. I don't think we should assume the same will be possible in Zoom recorders. Not because of the different number of ADCs, but because the DSP hardware and software is likely to be significantly different between the two manufacturers.

I think the biggest reason is that zoom doesn't care, and neither do most of their customers.  If enough people complain, the f3n or f8x pro or whatever will have a different strategy.

[Gutbucket]

Since I am not recording water droplets and can hear absolutely no trace of noise during live music transitions, I will continue using my F3s  with their great pre-amps and leave gain staging in my past along with my past fears of not demagnetizing my cassette deck heads often enough (or too often) or burning out my clutch in shifting my gears too hastily.  YMMV

Sure, you can do that as long as you are always and only running your mics direct in to the recorder.  If you ever use an external preamp, or run any other signal chain consisting of multiple units into your F3, the gain staging ahead of the recorder will matter.

Gain staging will always remain relevant and important.  Its not tied to any specific technology.  It matters just as much inside the F3, the thing is Zoom has engineered it so you needn't be aware of it.  In fact, the issue we've discussing is how the internal gain-staging across multiple ADCs is being managed somewhat imperfectly!

OT- Long live the manual transmission and drivers who know how to work them.

[fanofjam]

OT- Long live the manual transmission and drivers who know how to work them.

Most cars in Europe have manual transmissions and diesel engines.  Cars are as disposable as bic lighters in America, they're most people's primary life investment in Europe, since people are way less transitory, and homes are oftentimes handed down from generation to generation.

[unidentified]

Since I am not recording water droplets and can hear absolutely no trace of noise during live music transitions, I will continue using my F3s  with their great pre-amps and leave gain staging in my past along with my past fears of not demagnetizing my cassette deck heads often enough (or too often) or burning out my clutch in shifting my gears too hastily.  YMMV

Sure, you can do that as long as you are always and only running your mics direct in to the recorder.  If you ever use an external preamp, or run any other signal chain consisting of multiple units into your F3, the gain staging ahead of the recorder will matter.

Gain staging will always remain relevant and important.  Its not tied to any specific technology.  It matters just as much inside the F3, the thing is Zoom has engineered it so you needn't be aware of it.  In fact, the issue we've discussing is how the internal gain-staging across multiple ADCs is being managed somewhat imperfectly!

OT- Long live the manual transmission and drivers who know how to work them.

Thanks for the blessing. I drove  manual transmission cars for decades.  Modern automatic transmissions are now more efficient than manuals.  Thank goodness.  I am so old that I remember manual choke knobs on my first cars.   

[aaronji]

Most cars in Europe have manual transmissions and diesel engines.  Cars are as disposable as bic lighters in America, they're most people's primary life investment in Europe, since people are way less transitory, and homes are oftentimes handed down from generation to generation.

At least in the Netherlands, this isn't really true. Most cars are manual (75%?), but the shift has been large and the rate of change is increasing as well. The vast majority of passenger vehicles run on gas, though. Probably ~80% gas. Of the other 20%, diesel is a substantial, but quickly decreasing, chunk. Pretty large increases in hybrids and electric the past few years. I also think people move/travel at least as frequently as Americans. I know more people from back home that never crossed the PA state line than Dutch that haven't traveled overseas...

[EDIT TO ADD] Manuals are considerably cheaper, so that is probably a reason they continue to sell. It is more expensive to own/operate a car here.

And, on topic, I would wager the reason SD was able to address this issue more easily is because their patented method basically estimates the instantaneous rate of change (i.e. first derivative) by running regression on a small number of samples. Any curve is essentially linear over a tiny interval, so they can leverage that to accurately estimate the shifts over very short time spans.

Also, there is no such thing as a free lunch. Maybe cheap, but not free. I suspect this is the reason that SD doesn't offer 32-bit float on their pro level recorders.

[Gutbucket]

Continuing the OT-

I'm curious if a particular driver behavior change I notice here might be the same in the Netherlands and elsewhere, which may be partly due to the shift away from manual transmissions but I think is far more driven by mobile phone usage-

Decades ago, drivers would generally tend to coast to a red traffic light, then take off quickly as soon as the signal changed.  That behavior seems to now be completely inverted- Drivers tend to rush to a red light, seemingly braking as late as possible, then slowly take off after the signal changes.

Anyone else notice this?  I assume its because they are impatient get back on their phone while stopped at the light, and are slow to quit it after the change.

It's somewhat annoying as I'm still coasting, timing the light changes to preserve inertia, shifting manually.  The new behavior folks speed past and swerve in front during the coast, then sit there after the light change, screwing up the well preserved inertia and timing. [shakes old man fits at cloud]

I do wonder if my current manual 6-speed (2013 era, its so good - manual transmission finally perfected) may unfortunately be the last of its breed.  Its been a very long time since I was adjusting valves and timing, and longer still since I was working a choke-knob and shifting "3 on the tree"!   Where's that old wire-recorder?

[fanofjam]

At least in the Netherlands, this isn't really true. Most cars are manual (75%?), but the shift has been large and the rate of change is increasing as well. The vast majority of passenger vehicles run on gas, though. Probably ~80% gas. Of the other 20%, diesel is a substantial, but quickly decreasing, chunk. Pretty large increases in hybrids and electric the past few years. I also think people move/travel at least as frequently as Americans. I know more people from back home that never crossed the PA state line than Dutch that haven't traveled overseas...

Yeah, my Euro experience is from 2007-2009 from living in Slovenia, so I shouldn't have assumed it was still the same today.  Somewhat surprised though about the shift to gasoline.  Not surprised at all about the shift to electric/hybrids. 

I'd be curious to know more about transitory lifestyles in the US versus Europe.  I know that in Slovenia, with only 2 million people, they're much more internally focused on Slovenia first...15 years ago anyway.  There weren't alot of specialty manufacturers and/or industry and people were so proud of Slovenia...in general they had absolutely no desire to live anyplace else.  The majority of jobs are people supporting other people.  There's not nearly as much of a profit and loss focus by multi-national mega-company's.  So people aren't as subject to economic cycles as in the US, where virtually nobody goes through their lives anymore without experiencing 2 or 3 or 4 layoffs.  In Slovenia, employers were much more about providing a company that supports the lifestyles of its workforce than they were about making profits for their shareholders.  At least that was my perception.

I hope it hasn't changed, honestly.  I loved the fact that, in Europe, entire countries shut down for 6 weeks for summer holidays because, for six weeks anyway, the focus is on the people and the family and not the company. 

[breakonthru]

Thanks for the blessing. I drove  manual transmission cars for decades.  Modern automatic transmissions are now more efficient than manuals.

about as efficient perhaps, but its impossible to be more efficient than a direct clutch connection (with a capable driver of course)

[datbrad]

All this car talk has me thinking, is 32 bit float the CVT of recording formats? It's the most efficient transmission made, yet real driving enthusiasts hate them.

[Gutbucket]

I think a dual clutch automatics (which are essentially manual transmissions operated automatically) are more efficient than a CVT, due to less friction loss through a direct clutch connection.  They compensate for the lack of the CVT's infinite gear ratio by adding additional gear sets - eight or nine I in some cases I think.  They are more efficient than a true manual for three reasons:  There are additional gear sets to choose between. The dual clutch arrangement means any two adjacent gear sets are always simultaneously engaged and dual clutches switch between them, so there is no "down time" when the engine is disconnected from the drive train during a shift.  And the shifting is computer managed, cyber vigilantly paying attention to the situation without distraction to optimize efficiency to the ability of its programming.

I just like doing the left foot right hand dance.  Paddles just aren't the same.  And operate the CD player at the same time. ; )

[dallman]

I have not read all of the above, but as someone who has been taping since 1971, I love the 32 bit world we have entered. Why? Because I have made great recordings. I have had no issues at all. The biggest difference is that I do not have to occasionally spend a inordinate amount of time leveling the first 10 or 20 seconds of a recording because it is too hot or too low. I have a few decks and do not at all mind going 24 bit when one of those makes sense, but using the same gear I have used for years, 32 bit is my choice. For me, how the end result sounds is what matters most. That said, I respect and admire all the dialog dissecting the respective differences in how we approach our passion.