Topic: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder

[grawk]

I believe all gain on the PR2 is digital, so best bet imho is to run at 0, then normalize in post.

[Gutbucket]

I assume so too.  I just want to use the digital gain to match the available dynamic range of the recorder (when in stereo 24 bit mode) to the dynamic range of the mics as optimally as possible. 

The measurements over at at ASR indicate the PR2 achieves a DR of 92.9dB when gain is set to 0dB.  DPA's specified DR for 4060 Core exceeds that at 106dB, but that reflects the difference between A-weighted equivalent self-noise of 23dB (typ.) up to a 129dB peak SPL @ 1% THD.   I figure the real world DR of the mics is closer to the difference between the ITU-R BS.468-4 equivalent self-noise of 35 dB (typ) up to the 126dB RMS SPL @ 1% THD, which works out to 91dB.  It fits if the gain is set optimally, in which case the mics rather than the recorder should be the bottleneck in the recoding chain.

Maximizing the available DR probably doesn't matter for most of what folks are taping, and won't for these upcoming shows I mention, but will for the classical recording I plan to do, and is good practice in general.

[colargol]

I also ran it once with a Baby NBox recording close to the source
and think running about +9dB was about right to avoid go over -10dB on the display
I think in MOST situations I would go +12 or even 15dB

Did you run mic or line in? With the babynbox into the A10 I have always used the line in...

[darby]

I also ran it once with a Baby NBox recording close to the source
and think running about +9dB was about right to avoid go over -10dB on the display
I think in MOST situations I would go +12 or even 15dB

Did you run mic or line in? With the babynbox into the A10 I have always used the line in...

there is NO WAY I could use Mic In

[colargol]

there is NO WAY I could use Mic In

Just to make sure i understand you correctly… you mean because the signal from the babynbox would be too hot for nic in, right?
I seem to remember that people said to use mic in back when the babynbox came out, but i always got a hot enough signal to use line in… i almost always tape amplified shows, though…

[darby]

considering I'm at 2 or 3 running Line IN...

there is NO WAY I could use Mic In

Just to make sure i understand you correctly… you mean because the signal from the babynbox would be too hot for nic in, right?
I seem to remember that people said to use mic in back when the babynbox came out, but i always got a hot enough signal to use line in… i almost always tape amplified shows, though…

[Gutbucket]

Haven't had a chance to really listen or examine to the initial concert recording I made last Monday night, but some initial testing beforehand and a brief listen afterward indicates DPA 4060 may be too sensitive for the PR-2 for our uses.  DPA 4061 should probably be used in its place.  In testing beforehand, with PR-2 input gain set to 0dB, loud clapping immediately next to the mics (accommodation of which is the gain setting method I use for classical music and less amplified performances) produced an asymmetrical, slightly clipped waveform.  On a brief headphone listen directly off of the itself recorder after the concert I heard distortion in the bass. 

Will give a more serious listen over the weekend and and examine the waveforms.  I'll also do the same loud clap test using the same mics through the DPA XLR adapters into a P48 input on another recorder to compare, as I've not actually used this pair of mics previously.  This was the first time I've used the CORE amplifier version of the 4060.  CORE is spec'd as improving distortion specifications and SPL handling capability over the legacy version of the microphone that I am familiar with, and I know from experience that the loud clap test can be accommodated with legacy 4060 > CA-UGLY > DR2d.

The concert was bass heavy from the recording position in the pit, but wasn't overly loud.  I wore earplugs yet most others around me did not.  I intended to note SPL levels using a phone app during the concert yet forgot to do so.

Some concerning behavior- During initial testing beforehand I used a pair of well used Eneloop NiMH.  For the concert I switched to a pair of Energizer disposable lithium AA's - not sure how old, but they had been used previously in a DR2d.  With the menu entry appropriately set to lithium, the PR-2's battery meter indicated full charge beforehand.  I had the LEDs on PR-2 turned off, and the LOCK function set to 15sec.  As mentioned previously, lock function blacks out the PR-2 completely (in this case after 15sec) until either of the buttons are pressed.  I recorded the opener, then started a new file during the intermission between acts.  Sometime prior to the main act the PR-2 no longer responded to any button presses.  I assumed the batteries had died, and took myself to task a bit for not bringing spare AA's.  At several points during the headline performance I tried unlocking it / turning it back on, in the hope that the batteries might have recovered sufficiently to run it for just a few minutes, but saw no indication on the display.  Unlike my typical 4-channel stealth method, I was running the mics pseudo-binaurally in glasses, and figuring the recording had stopped, I at some point took the glasses off my head and let them hang freely on my chest.  Afterward I installed fresh batteries, restarted the PR-2, took a look at the files and was surprised to find that the recorder had remained running throughout the headline set even though the display remained dark and I could not unlock the PR-2.  Behavior with fresh new batteries installed was normal.  I've not explored this further yet.  Might reflect PR-2's behavior prior to low battery voltage shutdown.  I want to test that further, and also re-run the clap test and check for low frequency distortion while using higher nominal voltage alkaline AA.

Just wanted to relay this initial use report to the thread, more on all this once I get a chance to look into it further..

[Chilly Brioschi]

Just a thought, sometimes a recording will reveal things that exist, but are masked to our ears

Vocal distortion is at top of mind, where bass harmonics and other instruments wash over it
Then the pre-FM or SBD circulates, and it is all to obvious, and not in a taper's control

The microphone is better than the ear, or at least significantly different, for good or ill.


On the Diety ...  So a 20db or 10db pad?

[Sebastian]

there is NO WAY I could use Mic In

Just to make sure i understand you correctly… you mean because the signal from the babynbox would be too hot for nic in, right?
I seem to remember that people said to use mic in back when the babynbox came out, but i always got a hot enough signal to use line in… i almost always tape amplified shows, though…

Yeah, for amplified shows, use line in. And here's the math to back it up.

Schoeps MK4s have a sensitivity of 15 mV/Pa. Unfortunately, Deity doesn't provide meaningful specs for the inputs. So let's instead see why running line in with a Sony A10 is a good idea! The A10's mic in is rated for 2.5 mV. With a Schoeps mic, that equals 2.5/15 = 0.166 Pa. Now 0.166 Pa is equivalent to 78 dB SPL (here's a great calculator!). Most likely, your typical amplified concert is louder than that and your mic inputs will get overloaded. The line in is rated for 2 V. That equals 2/0.015 = 133 Pa, or 136 dB SPL. So the chances of overloading the line inputs are practically zero (at 136 dB SPL, chances are you'll run away from pain anyways).

[daspyknows]

there is NO WAY I could use Mic In

Just to make sure i understand you correctly… you mean because the signal from the babynbox would be too hot for nic in, right?
I seem to remember that people said to use mic in back when the babynbox came out, but i always got a hot enough signal to use line in… i almost always tape amplified shows, though…

In the Tascam DR-2D with the babynbox I run mic-in low gain and it's not too hot.  I run mostly amplified sources too.  Pretty sure the Zoom F-3 it doesn't seem to matter with the 32 bit float.   

Back on topic, I am still not convinced this unit is a material upgrade except for size compared to the Tascam.  I was hoping it would be.

[Sebastian]

In the Tascam DR-2D with the babynbox I run mic-in low gain and it's not too hot.  I run mostly amplified sources too.  Pretty sure the Zoom F-3 it doesn't seem to matter with the 32 bit float.   

Back on topic, I am still not convinced this unit is a material upgrade except for size compared to the Tascam.  I was hoping it would be.

Yeah, it really depends on the rating of the recorder's inputs. The DR-2d's mic inputs are rated up to 158 mV, which is equivalent to 114 dB SPL with Schoeps mics. I don't know about the U.S., but amplified shows here in Europe usually run at around 100 dB SPL these days (even though that figure is a-weighted and therefore, real levels could be higher). As I said earlier, the A10's mic input is much worse. And Deity doesn't even specify this (which says a lot).

And I agree that the Deity is not much of an upgrade compared to what we already have. And the fact that Deity doesn't have a meaningful spec sheet doesn't really inspire a lot of confidence in their recorder.

[dallman]

In the Tascam DR-2D with the babynbox I run mic-in low gain and it's not too hot.  I run mostly amplified sources too.  Pretty sure the Zoom F-3 it doesn't seem to matter with the 32 bit float.   

Back on topic, I am still not convinced this unit is a material upgrade except for size compared to the Tascam.  I was hoping it would be.

Yeah, it really depends on the rating of the recorder's inputs. The DR-2d's mic inputs are rated up to 158 mV, which is equivalent to 114 dB SPL with Schoeps mics. I don't know about the U.S., but amplified shows here in Europe usually run at around 100 dB SPL these days (even though that figure is a-weighted and therefore, real levels could be higher). As I said earlier, the A10's mic input is much worse. And Deity doesn't even specify this (which says a lot).

And I agree that the Deity is not much of an upgrade compared to what we already have. And the fact that Deity doesn't have a meaningful spec sheet doesn't really inspire a lot of confidence in their recorder.

I don't know, and you all are welcome to disagree, but I think the Deity is something special. The preamp seems to me to be really crisp and clear. After playing around, I am only running 24 Bit as I want 2 channels. I am running PR-2 >Ca 11. That's it. And at 2 loud shows this week, I had the settings on +15 dB, which is a lot of gain. That is running mic in to get the 5v PIP. The battery life is great, I am on full with rechargable lithiums after 2 full shows. Now the manual tells me very little, and this has all been through trial and error, but I have 2 personal conclusions from my experience.

a. This is one small  setup
b. The recordings sound really good.

It sounds like others are not having the same experience, but I am really impressed.

[grawk]

The primary advantage is the 5v power. If you are using a different way to power your mics there’s no longer a huge benefit.

That said, the kk14s and pr2 fit in a wallet with a drivers license and credit card etc to make it really easy to Jedi mind trick your way in anywhere.

[daspyknows]

To run Schoeps I still need the babynbox or equivalent though.  So its Deity or DR-2D,  Getting the DR-2D in is easy for me.   What I was ready to buy was the Zoom F-3 in a Deity for factor.  Stereo 32 bit float and modern features.  All of this gear meets a need for someone.  Just disappointed it doesn't meet mine.

[Gutbucket]

Daspy, because you still need Nbox to power your mics, I see no real advantage of PR2 for your use .. other than PR2 being less than half the size of DR2d.. and the locking input jack.

In the Tascam DR-2D with the babynbox I run mic-in low gain and it's not too hot.  I run mostly amplified sources too.  Pretty sure the Zoom F-3 it doesn't seem to matter with the 32 bit float.

The overload is occurring prior to the digital conversion and really has nothing to do with 32bit float on the F3.  It's just that F3 and DR2d are capable of accepting higher analog input voltages than PR2.

Along with Sebastian I'm disappointed by the lack of important specs.

The primary advantage is the 5v power. If you are using a different way to power your mics there’s no longer a huge benefit.

^This.  To my way of thinking the advantage of PR2 is mostly about its smallness as an "all in one" via elimination of the need for an additional battery box or preamp.  Also agreed with Dallman that it is easy to use, works well, and sounds good within its input limits.  Unfortunate its limits seem insufficient for the mics I'd prefer to use..


I didn't get a chance to do the further testing I discussed in my previous post this past weekend, but hope to one evening this week.  I did confirm that as the batteries were dying, the PR2 continued running for several hours after becoming totally unresponsive, which was somewhat longer than the show, and that the distortion slowly increased over that time period until the PR2 eventually shut itself down (after properly saving the file).  At the start of the recording the overload distortion was driven solely by low frequency drum and bass impacts (unfortunately along with higher frequency harmonic artifacts) slowly progressing into to a very scratchy sounding full range distortion later on as available battery voltage/current continued to drop further.