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Author Topic: Acoustic Recording Techniques  (Read 1268971 times)

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Acoustic Recording Techniques
« Reply #75 on: February 03, 2025, 04:26:44 PM »
Drunk smiley face!  Better described as a "V" than a bowtie I suppose. 

I'm not applying that curve to affect the tonal response and contribution of that channel per say. To the degree that it does effect overall frequency response I just correct for that with EQ on the masterbus, but its level contribution to the mix in terms of tone is relatively small.  The "V"-shaped EQ is instead being to used to effect how the additional difference information being provided by the fig-8 Side channel is being distributed across the frequency range.  In relation to the rest of the mix, the fig-8 side channel is 100% difference signal.  By fully attenuating what it is contributing at the low point cusp of the "V" around 1kHz it adds no additional difference signal in the mid-range, but adds gradually increasing difference signal as the frequency range extends either way above and below that point.

I arrived at that curve empirically by ear by listening to what it does to the spatial imaging presentation.  Started by playing around with a low frequency boost or cut to that channel and quickly extended that to a loudness-compensation shaped curve, then ended up modifying that to a "V" and liking what that did the most.  When I playback directly off the recorder that channel similarly goes through a Mid/Side to L/R conversion, but in that case there is no EQ applied, which makes deciding how much of it to include more difficult.  With the "V" shape I can add more of it which improves the perception of the low bass and airy atmospheric highs without the midrange information getting blurred, cluttered or overly busy.

I only mention that as one interesting example of EQing the Difference channel info.  It may not be applicable to any other stereo microphone arrangements, but it works great on the few OMT8 recordings I've actually gotten around to mixing down on the computer.

I mostly want to encourage folks who may be interested to play around with EQing the difference channel!  It's a very cool and powerful spatial tool. 

Hope this aside on that didn't take thing too OT.
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Offline voltronic

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Re: Acoustic Recording Techniques
« Reply #76 on: February 04, 2025, 08:36:14 PM »
I made new versions of the 22 cm AB tracks linked earlier with different EQ settings. I think these are better. That post from Feb 2 is now updated with the new files.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Acoustic Recording Techniques
« Reply #77 on: February 05, 2025, 11:37:31 AM »
Thanks. Just grabbed both zipped file sets.  Will try to listen tonight.

Is there a copy of each without any shuffling applied in there that can be listed to for comparison?  If not can you share that as well?  Thanks.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline voltronic

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Re: Acoustic Recording Techniques
« Reply #78 on: February 05, 2025, 01:32:40 PM »
Thanks. Just grabbed both zipped file sets.  Will try to listen tonight.

Is there a copy of each without any shuffling applied in there that can be listed to for comparison?  If not can you share that as well?  Thanks.

Yes, those are the tracks marked 'DRY' in the Samply and Send links from my original post.

https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=203942.msg2423527#msg2423527

https://samply.app/player/jcNlUgG3PFm7B8BGnxR6

https://send.monks.tools/download/5edb36b17d1ba3bd/#EHZNI_MIKL9neFleIE1IIQ
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Acoustic Recording Techniques
« Reply #79 on: February 06, 2025, 06:58:31 PM »
Thanks for posting these samples.

I very much like what the shuffling is doing in these examples, which to my perception increases the sense of dimension, openness, and naturalness, particularly in the low frequency range where it is being specifically targeted.  The effective increase of the ratio of difference (Side) signal to sum (Mid) signal at low frequencies also serves to bring out more natural reverberation of the room that was already present in the recording but just not as apparent as with the shuffling applied.

Comparing the two mic configs, I also greatly prefer the 22cm AB omnis to the Gerzon cardioids.  The AB omnis with the shuffling are just lovely.  The Gerzon pair seems to act too much like section mics overly highlighting the violin section on the left and the cello and bass sections on the right, with too much separation between them and not enough of all the other instrumentation to properly glue those two halves together.  Still, the shuffling improves the Gerzon configuration as well and in a similar way.

What the shuffling is doing here is exactly what I like to hear in my recordings, and why I gravitate to using larger omni spacings which in part naturally achieve what the shuffling is doing here.  More specifically, that is achieving sufficiently minimal diffuse-field correlation or DFC at low frequencies.  Shuffling decreases the inevitable low frequency correlation of diffuse field pickup inherent to a narrow mic spacing, while a wider mic spacing produces less diffuse-field low frequency correlation as a result of the additional spacing.

That the shuffling is working equally well for both of the configurations in Voltroni's examples reinforces my conception of shuffling being a potentially useful tool for most coincident and near-spaced mic configs, as it serves to "perceptually correct" for the overly high DFC of a near-spaced pair as frequency decreases, and for the lack of phase differences in a coincident pair.

The cavat in my using larger spacings is that is I then end up mixing in additional near-spaced or coincident channels to essentially "correct for" other less desirable stuff that is a result of using those wider spacings by themselves.  The application of shuffling to recordings made using narrower spacings such as these achieves something similar by instead "correcting" the less desirable low frequency aspects that naturally result from a narrower spacing.  Sort of opposite approaches which produce similar results in regards to the low frequency difference information in the recording.

If up for playing around with stuff, you might try adding a bit of shuffling at high frequencies and see if you like what that does in opening up the sense of "air" in the recording, while leaving the midrange alone to keep it dry, tight and perceptually closer.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Acoustic Recording Techniques
« Reply #80 on: February 06, 2025, 07:04:12 PM »
More thoughts on the shuffling samples, specifically on adding reverb-

I sometimes liked the added reverb and sometimes found it a bit too much- of course that's just my personal taste.  In some places I found it very helpful and just right. 

Listening specifically to how the shuffling alone brought out more of the natural reverberance got me thinking about a potentially interesting way to add artificial reverb to a recording- We might add it just to the difference (side) channel, while adding none to the sum (mid) channel. That would keep the center of the playback image drier and perceptually closer, while the reverb would add depth that progressively increases out to either side. That may be useful way to add sufficient 'verb without obscuring the details or making the perspective overly distant.  Alternately as a more advanced take on this, one might add different amounts of 'verb perhaps with different parameters to the sum (mid) channel verses the difference (side) channel - say just a touch in the center and more to the sides, and maybe a smaller room / shorter-tail to the center but a larger room / longer-tail to the sides.

musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Billy Mumphrey

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Re: Acoustic Recording Techniques
« Reply #81 on: February 06, 2025, 10:32:02 PM »
I did some listening and the shuffle EQ definitely has a desirable effect to my ears. The instruments, the "room", and the overall sound just pops a little more. The stereo sound is increased. It's certainly pleasing.

Also, like Gut says, there seems to be an increase in reverb. In a good way.

Pretty crazy that a low end shelf, or EQing itself, has an effect on the stereo qualities of the recording.

Also the gerzon samples sound ok at first listen but when I switched to the AB omni's, I immediately preffered the omni's. I would guess it's because of the off-axis response you get from a 120 degree angle.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Acoustic Recording Techniques
« Reply #82 on: February 07, 2025, 12:59:06 PM »
Pretty crazy that a low end shelf, or EQing itself, has an effect on the stereo qualities of the recording.

Also the gerzon samples sound ok at first listen but when I switched to the AB omni's, I immediately preferred the omni's. I would guess it's because of the off-axis response you get from a 120 degree angle.

Keep in mind it's not just the EQ filtering in a tonal sense that we're hearing, but the change of stereo width in the affected EQ region.  Arguably the stereo width changes are perceived more strongly than the tonal change.

The omnis sound better for a number of reasons I think. One is the off-axis response, but the smoothness and placement of the image distribution is a bigger factor for me.  Also the lovely smoothness of response of those 4006's.  Love that omni sound when it works.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline voltronic

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Re: Acoustic Recording Techniques
« Reply #83 on: February 08, 2025, 10:30:41 AM »
Pretty crazy that a low end shelf, or EQing itself, has an effect on the stereo qualities of the recording.

Also the gerzon samples sound ok at first listen but when I switched to the AB omni's, I immediately preferred the omni's. I would guess it's because of the off-axis response you get from a 120 degree angle.

Keep in mind it's not just the EQ filtering in a tonal sense that we're hearing, but the change of stereo width in the affected EQ region.  Arguably the stereo width changes are perceived more strongly than the tonal change.

The omnis sound better for a number of reasons I think. One is the off-axis response, but the smoothness and placement of the image distribution is a bigger factor for me.  Also the lovely smoothness of response of those 4006's.  Love that omni sound when it works.

It should also be noted that the 4006 pair are using preamps with a full PCB replacement by Rens Heijnis, which smooths out the HF glare of the stock preamps in a subtle but noticeable way. This was my first concert recording after getting them back.

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Acoustic Recording Techniques
« Reply #84 on: February 10, 2025, 11:45:28 AM »
They do sound great! Particularly so with the shuffling applied when used at that kind of narrow AB spacing.  Tapers take note!  The technique makes for a very reasonable A-B omni setup that is broadly applicable to the use of omnis in general, regardless of which particular microphones and amplifiers are used - good in both practical and sonic terms.  The near-spacing is both practical and keeps the midrange imaging in check by minimizing the tendency toward a weaker center that a wider spacing can cause, while the shuffling helps correct for the inherent drawbacks of near-spaced omnis.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline voltronic

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Re: Acoustic Recording Techniques
« Reply #85 on: February 10, 2025, 07:15:44 PM »
They do sound great! Particularly so with the shuffling applied when used at that kind of narrow AB spacing.  Tapers take note!  The technique makes for a very reasonable A-B omni setup that is broadly applicable to the use of omnis in general, regardless of which particular microphones and amplifiers are used - good in both practical and sonic terms.  The near-spacing is both practical and keeps the midrange imaging in check by minimizing the tendency toward a weaker center that a wider spacing can cause, while the shuffling helps correct for the inherent drawbacks of near-spaced omnis.

The biggest drawback of this close spacing (to my ears) is the double-imaging of close, off-center sources. In my samples, this is most apparent in the violin solo in Overture to the Wind.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Acoustic Recording Techniques
« Reply #86 on: February 11, 2025, 10:54:50 AM »
^Made better by placing a baffle between the mics.. which makes it even truer to Alan Blumlein's original work.  Except doing that is problematic in terms of practically.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline voltronic

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Re: Acoustic Recording Techniques
« Reply #87 on: February 11, 2025, 06:23:35 PM »
^Made better by placing a baffle between the mics.. which makes it even truer to Alan Blumlein's original work.  Except doing that is problematic in terms of practically.

If you use a baffle, you would narrow the spacing a bit to 20 cm to match Blumlein's original patent. From what I understand, Michael Gerzon and other researchers proposed 22 cm without a baffle as having similar overall characteristics.

But yes, the baffle is practical and more visually obtrusive. Fine for a recording session; less so for a live concert.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Acoustic Recording Techniques
« Reply #88 on: February 12, 2025, 12:32:20 PM »
I don't recall specifically, but am pretty sure that Blumlein, along with his ideological heir Gerzon, calculate the parameters of the shuffle-filtering based upon the spacing between microphones.  In that way they are applying it as a specific correction for the microphone configuration, in sort of a mathematical/engineering based approach.  And it's my impression that is the primary modality you are using thinking about.  All good.

I appreciate that mode of approach, but personally tend to approach it from more of a perceptual point of view.  Homing in on adjusting the parameters in search of whatever sounds best being right.  I approach it from a point of view that is closer to David Griesinger's thoughts on diffuse field correlation and spatiality.  Essentially the same thing, but a quite different modality and approach.

In the end hopefully all roads lead to Rome.

That's all a bit of handwaving before saying that without checking specifically (its been a long time since I read it) Blumlein's original patent outlining a 20cm spacing between omnis on either side of baffle along with the application of shuffle-filtering calculated specifically for that spacing seems reasonable.  However I cannot accept that arrangement will behave similarly to a 22cm spacing without a baffle, except at low frequencies. The mid and high frequency imaging and spatial qualities will be quite different.  2cm of addition spacing does not and cannot equate to what a barrier between the mics does. As a quick thought experiment, consider how the two arrangements would be expected to compare with regards to your "double image" observation.

[edit- Blumlein and Gerzon may very well have been primarily considering the low frequency region where there the phase relationship of these arrangements remain mathematically "simple and predictable", and not so much the higher frequency regions where things become highly complex for any spaced pair.  Similarly the math for coincident ambisonics which represents the ultimate expression of their work isn't exactly simple yet remains reasonable, while mathematical modeling of the behavior of a spaced pairs is neither]
« Last Edit: February 12, 2025, 12:45:46 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline voltronic

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Re: Acoustic Recording Techniques
« Reply #89 on: February 12, 2025, 06:30:53 PM »
I am also a bit suspicious about 22 cm without a baffle sounding more or less like 20 cm with a baffle, but I'm just passing along what I was told.

As for the shuffling formula, in the discussions on GS it was posted the following:

2.1 / d where d is the capsule spacing in inches
5.4 / d where d is the capsule spacing in cm

The result is in kHz, and should be used for the lower corner frequency of the Side channel low-shelf. So for 22 cm, that comes out to about 245 Hz.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2025, 07:31:57 PM by voltronic »
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