Topic: Tascam FR-AV2 new compact 32bit float recorder.

[Kyle K]

"with 32 bit float enabled, you can still set gain independently to each channel (1 or 2)".  Sorry to be slow, but how is this useful?  I own a F3 and I can always adjust the relative volume levels in post as needed.

I do not see why it would be particularly useful. Maybe if you were running two different mics with wildly different sensitivities? I was just reporting anything relevant to setting levels while recording since TheJez expressed curiosity.

On another note, holy hell is the multi device management & app in general just miles ahead of the A10 app. The only thing that's wonky is adjusting any of the levels - it's a slider rather than a button, and it is sort of 'sticky' so if you are sliding the OUTPUT playback from 10 to 30, you will drag it to 30 and then it will snap back to 10 and rapidly climb up, reflecting the device actually receiving your command to raise the volume and showing you how that is happening in realtime. Have seen it snap back and forth a bit, it can be a bit finicky - I prefer the A10 app's approach to just giving you a button, so you can press however many times to raise it the exact amount you're expecting without even looking, really.

I went into a bit of detail there because it is the singular only complaint I have. Everything else is excellent, and I work on a team developing mobile apps in my professional life, so I know how much of a pain in the ass Android + Bluetooth development is to get right.

The app allows you to adjust basically everything on the device remotely, allows you to monitor levels of multiple devices at once (I experienced intense pain at times switching from device to device when I was running multiple A10s - not an issue, here.) start or stop devices simultaneously, easily remotely monitor with Bluetooth headphones as well as remote control, and it has a HOLD button so you can monitor levels without worrying about phantom touches from sweaty concert gear setup fingers. Ironically monitoring levels probably won't be necessary for the most part anymore, but still. I like to have it out and showing levels particularly for the first note of the show, as I've experienced levels suddenly dropping once they switch over from the house music, at which point I can signal the engineer to save it if they are so kind.

On the Bluetooth connectivity front, I just did a shootout between the A10 and the AV2 and sadly the A10 absolutely smokes it - even on "stable". I was able to get at least double the effective range (~60 vs ~30 ft) out of the A10. Was hoping for the opposite, that's a major damper for me. Extremely surprising given the increased power capacity and Bluetooth 5 of the AV2. Doesn't help not worrying about levels if I can't confirm that I'm receiving a signal :/

[darby]

in setting mine up today I noticed that when powering the unit OFF and then ON later...

the Phantom Power setting defaults backs to OFF... ALL other Input settings are saved

the Manual does indicate...

The following input settings can be saved and recalled.
- REC LEVEL
- GANG
- DELAY
- LOW CUT
- DYNAMICS
- EQ (MANUAL EQ)
- NOISE GATE

my other Tascam recorders will ask when powering on... "Phantom Power is ON... are you sure?"  or something along those lines

"with 32 bit float enabled, you can still set gain independently to each channel (1 or 2)".  Sorry to be slow, but how is this useful?  I own a F3 and I can always adjust the relative volume levels in post as needed. 

in the Input settings from 0 to +60dB and you can Gang the channels or set separately

being able to set levels at the Input stage avoids accidental overloads that CANNOT be fixed

[unidentified]

Oh OK, so the gain setting applies to the input stage before the signal hits the floating 32 bit innards of the device.   

[rastasean]

Just received mine. Just to answer this, with 32 bit float enabled, you can still set gain independently to each channel (1 or 2). From 0 to +60 DB. It is set to +18 by default. Can adjust while recording though the menu is a bit clunky. Expect it's easier with app.

Is it ONLY in 32 bit mode where you can independently set levels, or can you also do that in 24 bit as well?

[TheJez]

in setting mine up today I noticed that when powering the unit OFF and then ON later...

the Phantom Power setting defaults backs to OFF... ALL other Input settings are saved

the Manual does indicate...

The following input settings can be saved and recalled.
- REC LEVEL
- GANG
- DELAY
- LOW CUT
- DYNAMICS
- EQ (MANUAL EQ)
- NOISE GATE

my other Tascam recorders will ask when powering on... "Phantom Power is ON... are you sure?"  or something along those lines

"with 32 bit float enabled, you can still set gain independently to each channel (1 or 2)".  Sorry to be slow, but how is this useful?  I own a F3 and I can always adjust the relative volume levels in post as needed. 

in the Input settings from 0 to +60dB and you can Gang the channels or set separately

being able to set levels at the Input stage avoids accidental overloads that CANNOT be fixed

This issue seems to be fixed in the new firmware 1.01, see https://tascam.jp/int/product/fr-av2/support

The phantom power setting would always be turned off when the power was turned on. This has been fixed.

[Kyle K]

Well. Bad news.

I left it recording for a few hours, just some CA-14s and DPA 4061s into the 3.5mm both powered by their own battery boxes, PIP off, and for some reason, now, the there is a click in the left channel every ~.5 seconds.

Worse in one device than the other for some reason.

Can anyone else with one of these please perform the following steps:

Record for at least 3 hours with the 3.5mm. Then..

Set input to EXT (ST)

Set REC LEVEL to +60 (this is merely to see the issue more clearly, it is present no matter what)

Do not have ANYTHING plugged in.

Observe.

This is what I am getting, on both of my devices. Here is an example of the raw audio, as well as a video of what it looks like, and showing that I have absolutely nothing whatsoever plugged in:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TZzY6AXcXIu4Se0-kTGoGQqxjCsRuQt5/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MikyxW8Oo2ziBg-sY6JnhR4mWH-QhqiQ/view?usp=sharing


This issue is present no matter what the input source is, now. Even if it's set to MIC, it's still there, albeit much lower, given the much higher headroom of the XLR/TRS inputs.


I will see if factory resetting or firmware update does anything, but.... this seems like the devices are just defective, right?

Edit: Updated firmware, issue still present.

Edit 2: Factory reset, issue still present. I originally thought it went away because of the reset levels. Nope, still there in full force.

[Sebastian]

Move the battery boxes and mics away from the recorder and see if the issue disappears. If it does, then it's RFI from the recorder (most likely Bluetooth). Or try turning every thing off in the recorder that could remotely emit an electromagnetic field.

[Kyle K]

Move the battery boxes and mics away from the recorder and see if the issue disappears. If it does, then it's RFI from the recorder (most likely Bluetooth). Or try turning every thing off in the recorder that could remotely emit an electromagnetic field.

Walking around my home (Just holding the AV2, nothing at all plugged in or near) it is perfectly consistent. Bluetooth is off after factory reset.

Here is an example actually recording audio:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dsvI7OdnX9d_mR2Uax-CkZEfMJ2rLb1_/view?usp=drive_link


This is me recording with the default levels (+18), battery box (no external gain) and talking about 2 feet away from the mic. Then normalizing it.

For our purposes, this would probably be moot. Would likely be completely inaudible with the relative noise floor which would be present at vast majority of live acts. An external preamp would negate the concern.

Using XLR/TRS would also just about guarantee it'd never be an issue.

Doesn't concern me quite so much after doing this as a test but... I don't know. When I was first testing, I turned the gain up pretty damn high and just listened to ambient sound, and I did not hear the clicks. Perhaps the ambient volume of my living room was a fair bit higher than the bedroom I'm in now, fan on higher setting, A/C on... I am suspecting it's always there, and it will not actually be an issue recording typical volumes.

If anyone else can just set both channels to EXT and crank it up to +60 and let me know if you see the same thing, I'd appreciate it. Now I'm suspecting it's just something internal to the device.

I was planning to run 4061s into the AV2 with just a BB and do a shootout with my typical CA-UGLY > CA-14 > A10 chain, but now I'm thinking I'll want to run DPA 4060s instead.  To ensure there is no chance that I ever have to worry about those clicks..

[TheJez]

I'd be particularly interested in recording level functionality when using 32 bit float. With the F3 there is a fixed gain in the analog input, and then the 32 bit float samples are stored with an amplification depending on the 'magnification level' as was set at start of recording.
I can't find any details in the FR-AV2 manual about something like this. It seems as if the record level still applies to the analog input, regardless if 24bit or 32bit float is used. This would make it still possible to set the record level 'too high' when using 32bit float, resulting in overloading the analog input stage, kind of defeating the merrits of a 32 bits float recorder (set-and-forget). I might be wrong, of course...
Hope to hear soon about real-life experiences with this interesting device! I'm about to replace my Edirol R-09HR, and it seems I will choose between the F3 and the FR-AV2...

Just received mine. Just to answer this, with 32 bit float enabled, you can still set gain independently to each channel (1 or 2). From 0 to +60 DB. It is set to +18 by default. Can adjust while recording though the menu is a bit clunky. Expect it's easier with app.

Thanks for testing this. I guess it's still not fully clear if in 32bit float the gain is applied in the analog stage or in the digital domain. I guess it's in the analog stage, which would be a major difference compared to the F3. If so, this one seems to leave it to the user to set the gain 'good enough', 'optimal' or 'completely wrong'... 

[unidentified]

I'd be particularly interested in recording level functionality when using 32 bit float. With the F3 there is a fixed gain in the analog input, and then the 32 bit float samples are stored with an amplification depending on the 'magnification level' as was set at start of recording.
I can't find any details in the FR-AV2 manual about something like this. It seems as if the record level still applies to the analog input, regardless if 24bit or 32bit float is used. This would make it still possible to set the record level 'too high' when using 32bit float, resulting in overloading the analog input stage, kind of defeating the merrits of a 32 bits float recorder (set-and-forget). I might be wrong, of course...
Hope to hear soon about real-life experiences with this interesting device! I'm about to replace my Edirol R-09HR, and it seems I will choose between the F3 and the FR-AV2...

Just received mine. Just to answer this, with 32 bit float enabled, you can still set gain independently to each channel (1 or 2). From 0 to +60 DB. It is set to +18 by default. Can adjust while recording though the menu is a bit clunky. Expect it's easier with app.

Thanks for testing this. I guess it's still not fully clear if in 32bit float the gain is applied in the analog stage or in the digital domain. I guess it's in the analog stage, which would be a major difference compared to the F3. If so, this one seems to leave it to the user to set the gain 'good enough', 'optimal' or 'completely wrong'... 

Not an expert or close to it, but it would make no sense to me to have gain adjustments applied to a floating 32 bit-equipped recorder in the digital domain.  A previous response to my earlier dumb question suggested to me that the gain adjustments for this device applied to the analogue stage upstream from the digital domain.  FWIW, I have only encountered overloading the pre-digital domain (i.e., the analogue input stage) with my F3s when very strong gusts of air were blown directly into my unshielded (dumb mistake on my part) Line Audio CM3 mics--once by massive stage subwoofers, once by being way too close (a foot) to a bass drum,  and then again at home when I blew hard into them. Wiser positioning and windscreens have addressed that issue for me. 

[unidentified]

Move the battery boxes and mics away from the recorder and see if the issue disappears. If it does, then it's RFI from the recorder (most likely Bluetooth). Or try turning every thing off in the recorder that could remotely emit an electromagnetic field.

I have avoided using Bluetooth with my devices for fear of RFI, although more experienced folks here have reassured me that they have not encountered RFI with devices connected to their cell phones via Bluetooth.  However, this post suggests that RFI in this case may be an issue?   FWIW, I often use an F3 equipped with a XLR-minijack Y adapter with a nine volt SP battery box and CA-14 mics (with no power to the mics from the F3) and have never had an issue with clicks or RFI. 

[Kyle K]

It's not RFI, I am reasonably confident that anyone would see/hear it if they set input to EXT and applied max gain, or boosted a recording enough in a DAW.

I am pretty confident now that it's basically a non issue for 99% of applications. Only if you had an extremely low sensitivity mic, and you were recording a relatively quiet source, through 3.5mm, would you need to apply so much gain that it would be in any way audible.

Seems to just be internal mechanisms exposed in the edge case of applying extreme gain to the noisiest setting (EXT input).

I was more worried when it seemed as though it only appeared after a bit of use -- I now think it was always there and that I just didn't notice it in the room I was initially testing extreme gain / ambient noise in. If someone else can confirm that they see identical behavior when just setting to EXT +60 with nothing plugged in, as in the video above, it will all but confirm it.

[Joop]

Set REC LEVEL to +60 (this is merely to see the issue more clearly, it is present no matter what)
Do not have ANYTHING plugged in.

So you have an open input which is set to maximum amplification. It will pickup hum and alike. That's what you see. You have the same problems when the input is properly loaded? When you have a ticking sound with regular intervals you probably have a problem with static discharge. It can come from anything. Placed the recorder on a rubber isolation to rule out your table or you? May be there is a high voltage power line in your direct area. I don't think its a malfunction of the recorder as you have two examples, but it could be that something did go wrong at the assembly. In any case if this is persistent I would go back to your supplier.

[Kyle K]

Set REC LEVEL to +60 (this is merely to see the issue more clearly, it is present no matter what)
Do not have ANYTHING plugged in.

So you have an open input which is set to maximum amplification. It will pickup hum and alike. That's what you see. You have the same problems when the input is properly loaded? When you have a ticking sound with regular intervals you probably have a problem with static discharge. It can come from anything. Placed the recorder on a rubber isolation to rule out your table or you? May be there is a high voltage power line in your direct area. I don't think its a malfunction of the recorder as you have two examples, but it could be that something did go wrong at the assembly. In any case if this is persistent I would go back to your supplier.

No. Please see attached video above. The only thing being recorded there is the device itself, which does not have onboard microphones. No mics. No pip. No phantom power. Just 3 AA batteries. And the device.

Yes I've ruled out external factors.

I would return it if it wasn't the expected behavior of all devices, which is what I suspect. I've opened a ticket with Tascam to confirm. Others here with AV2s should be able to confirm that they see the same which will just about seal it, though.

[justme]

Well. Bad news.

Just a thought.
Did you power it with batteries, USB-C or with an external power supply?

The sound reminds me of voltage/power regulation.
What if you try usb-c from different sources or a couple of different battery chemistries?