Topic: Tascam FR-AV2 new compact 32bit float recorder.

[TheJez]

Something that's still not clear to me about this recorder is the record level in 32bit float mode. I know there has been a lot of discussion and confusion about this (or should I say about the 'magnification') on the F3, and I think I understand what the F3 is doing.
I would expect that just like with the F3, a fixed gain is applied in the analog stage and then an amplification is applied in the digital domain depending on your record level setting. This would also mean that if the meters go over 0dB while recording, you can still fix that in post without problems.
However, if the record level does affect the analog gain, it would be possible to set the record level 'too high' or 'too low', introducing clipping or poor S/N.
Hopefully some of the proud new owners of the FR-AV2 can shed some light on this? I really hope it's a set-and-forget recorder where the record level doesn't really matter, apart from seeing the bars going nicely up and down on that beautiful display.

On a sidenote: If the record level doesn't really matter, than I think it's a bit odd that it's possible to change the record levels while recording. Doing so would only complicate things in post, I think...

The technical aspect of audio is not my strong suit -- if you can give me a set of steps to test this properly I will do so.

With my limited understanding, I performed the following test:

Equipment:
DPA 4060 legacy > core sound BB > FR-AV2 EXT input

1) Identify a loud audio source that I know is not clipping at the mic level
2) record at +0 DB (showing -10 DB or so during recording)
3) record at +60 DB (showing endless clipping during recording)
4) normalize both files


No clipping in either once normalized. They both sound identical.

This means that the gain is not being applied at the analog level, right?

Right! Thanks a bunch!  This is exactly what I wanted to know and what I was hoping for. It means you can't set the level 'wrong'.
The only (not really relevant anymore) question remaining is what happens when the record level is changed while recording. Does it actually change the volume/amplitude of the samples stored in the file? I'd expect so. However, changing the record level while recording is something I would NEVER do with this device, as deemed useless by your previous test. IMHO it seems the F3 covers this functionality better by not allowing to change the record level while recording, only changing the vertical scale of the waveform display.

[TheJez]

Also, why would you use the core sound battery box with a recorder that provides 5v pip?

FYI:
I have a set of Core Sound Stealthy Cardioid Microphones and asked Len from Core Sound last week if I would be able to power these with the Tascam 5V PIP instead of the 9V battery box that came with the mics.
To my surprise I got a clear NO! Apparently the Core Sound battery box provides -9V, as apparently the mics need a negative voltage. The Tascam will provide +5V, so a positive voltage. I don't know the background of the need for this negative voltage, but he was very clear about this.
So I will still need the CS battery box when using these mics.

[grawk]

My comment was about the dpas. I’m not sure what Len did with the Panasonic caps when building his, but needing negative voltage doesn’t make any sense to me.

[adrianb]

My comment was about the dpas. I’m not sure what Len did with the Panasonic caps when building his, but needing negative voltage doesn’t make any sense to me.

It doesn’t make sense to me either, but I have Len’s dpa binaurals and the possibility of plugging directly into the Tascam has me intrigued. His battery box is quite large, and made of metal which makes stealth unlikely.

My Sony D100 provides 5V+ PIP so I’ve just tried plugging directly into that and it doesn’t work. Probing with my voltage meter and I’m even more confused, but there would seem to be no path for voltage supply from the 3.5mm input to the mics.

If I’m going to use these mics with the Tascam it would seem that I’m going to need a female 4-pin Mini-XLR to TRS 3.5mm adapter. If anyone has any suggestions on where I can buy one I’d be grateful.

[TheJez]

My comment was about the dpas. I’m not sure what Len did with the Panasonic caps when building his, but needing negative voltage doesn’t make any sense to me.

It doesn’t make sense to me either, but I have Len’s dpa binaurals and the possibility of plugging directly into the Tascam has me intrigued. His battery box is quite large, and made of metal which makes stealth unlikely.

My Sony D100 provides 5V+ PIP so I’ve just tried plugging directly into that and it doesn’t work. Probing with my voltage meter and I’m even more confused, but there would seem to be no path for voltage supply from the 3.5mm input to the mics.

If I’m going to use these mics with the Tascam it would seem that I’m going to need a female 4-pin Mini-XLR to TRS 3.5mm adapter. If anyone has any suggestions on where I can buy one I’d be grateful.

I don't know what your CS battery box and mic wiring looks like, I've attached a photo of my CS mics and battery box. If I would want to supply 5V PIP to the mics, I'd only need to get a 4-pin mini-xlr female connector (so the same as in the battery box) and then short the two pin pairs, creating a direct path for each channel from the 3.5mm plug to the mics. Without this, there is indeed no connection between 3.5mm and mics (other than ground). But maybe your CS battery box is different, as mine provides this weird -9V voltage to the mics...

Example: https://www.thomann.de/nl/rean_tiny_xlr_rt4_mpr.htm

[Kyle K]

For anyone curious, I did a "real world" (for me - batteries finished charging a few days ago, left in the AV2 since, used a few times here and there to fiddle with settings or minor <5m testing) battery test.

32bit/48khz/EXT input (stereo, no PIP).
Eneloop pros.

Got 8 hours 2 minutes out of it.

All files fine, including the last one which was cut off once the batteries died.

Max file size = 4,191,343 KB (splits after 3:06:16)


edit: Also, this discussion about -9v is interesting. I don't even know the model of this battery box, I bought it in like 2015 and can't find the receipt. Only ever used it once, just using it now because it fits the profile allowing for snug affixation to the AV2 on my rig. I set my rig up so it's all pre-built in my bag and able to be pulled out and set up on stage in less than 20 seconds.

[aaronji]

^ Is that with P48? What's the draw of the mics?

[Kyle K]

^ Is that with P48? What's the draw of the mics?

No, I know it is likely not of particular use to most since people will probably run phantom or PIP. I will be running that test once I get my XLR adapters for the DPAs. Currently just testing exact circumstances of my upcoming outing this Saturday - so no phantom or PIP. Just BB powered mics into 3.5mm (EXT stereo).

[adrianb]

32bit/48khz/EXT input (stereo, no PIP).
Eneloop pros.

Got 8 hours 2 minutes out of it.

8 hours with external power equates to significantly less with phantom power or PIP.

Curtis in his review mentioned he got 4 hours with a single 48v microphone.

I suspected the claims made for the battery life in the early (paid for?) reviews would prove to be wildly optimistic. If we have to rely on external power options then it will really impact on the stealth possibilities.

The AV2 is on my radar to buy when it becomes available in the UK, but will resist the urge to buy until real life testing reports are in so appreciate your input Kyle K.

[spyder9]

32bit/48khz/EXT input (stereo, no PIP).
Eneloop pros.

Got 8 hours 2 minutes out of it.

8 hours with external power equates to significantly less with phantom power or PIP.

He used Eneloop Pro AA batteries, not an external battery.  8 hours on the Eneloops is outstanding!  Add P48 and I bet he gets almost 4 hours.  With an Anker external usb battery, P48 on, and it should drive it up to 8 hours. 

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1047694-REG/panasonic_bk_3hcca4ba_eneloop_xx_aa_rechargeable.html/?ap=y&ap=y&smp=y&smp=y&lsft=BI%3A514&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIydOpjsmBiQMV-ahaBR3iGCqbEAQYAiABEgKHmPD_BwE

[grawk]

32bit/48khz/EXT input (stereo, no PIP).
Eneloop pros.

Got 8 hours 2 minutes out of it.

8 hours with external power equates to significantly less with phantom power or PIP.

He used Eneloop Pro AA batteries, not an external battery.  8 hours on the Eneloops is outstanding!  Add P48 and I bet he gets almost 4 hours.  With an Anker external usb battery, P48 on, and it should drive it up to 8 hours. 

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1047694-REG/panasonic_bk_3hcca4ba_eneloop_xx_aa_rechargeable.html/?ap=y&ap=y&smp=y&smp=y&lsft=BI%3A514&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIydOpjsmBiQMV-ahaBR3iGCqbEAQYAiABEgKHmPD_BwE

External mic power, not external recorder power

[adrianb]

External mic power, not external recorder power

Exactly.

I bet in the real world it ends up being two and a half hours with two 48v microphones connected.

Hopefully this device should be capable of sufficient hours with PIP mics for stealth situations.

[Kyle K]

If I don't get home too late tonight (and assuming the eneloops are fully charged, I usually give them a full night and a day, threw them on the charger this morning) I'll test 48v recording time with Neumann km184.

[TheJez]

If I don't get home too late tonight (and assuming the eneloops are fully charged, I usually give them a full night and a day, threw them on the charger this morning) I'll test 48v recording time with Neumann km184.

Did you use the ‘power save’ function in your previous test?
(I know you can’t use it with phantom…)
Just curious ’cause the display is a potential power drainer…

[adrianb]

If I don't get home too late tonight (and assuming the eneloops are fully charged, I usually give them a full night and a day, threw them on the charger this morning) I'll test 48v recording time with Neumann km184.

That would be great. Thanks.

Battery life is one of the things that annoys me about some of the newer recorders because it seems to be getting worse, and I hate using external power.

I was disappointed at the amount of recording time I was getting with my Sound Devices MixPre-3 and bought the 8xAA sled, which still only took me to about three hours. That’s enough for my needs, but only just.

I did a test with my Sony XLR-1 48v power supply, which takes 4xAA batteries, connected two Sennheiser MKH-8040 mics and got 36 hours recording time, so I know what can be acheived it just seems that manufacturers aren’t concerned about battery life these days.

I have no experience with Zoom products though and some people have mentioned the excellent battery life here.

I just hope the Tascam FR-AV2 doesn’t disappoint like my Sound Devices did, so fingers crossed.