Topic: Tascam FR-AV2 new compact 32bit float recorder.

[morst]

The XLR/TRS (LINE setting) have the highest max input and are balanced, so I opt for those in terms of minmaxing.

Totally agree, if the board operator is letting you have an XLR send.


Some boards like X32 have RCA or 1/4" outputs available.


If the 1/4" are balanced (three conductor, "TRS" = Tip-Ring-Sleeve) then it's beneficial to use TRS > XLR cabling and keep the connection balanced.


Otherwise, for unbalanced 1/4" or RCA outputs, any cable with proper connectors will be sufficient, and it may be most convenient to use 1/8" line inputs if you don't mind them not locking like XLR's.
With a board patch, it's not like it's gonna get bumped around in your bag, so the locking connector should be less of a worry. Plus you might already have that cable and not have a pair of TRS > XLR handy.

[mepaca]

The XLR/TRS (LINE setting) have the highest max input and are balanced, so I opt for those in terms of minmaxing.

Totally agree, if the board operator is letting you have an XLR send.


Some boards like X32 have RCA or 1/4" outputs available.


If the 1/4" are balanced (three conductor, "TRS" = Tip-Ring-Sleeve) then it's beneficial to use TRS > XLR cabling and keep the connection balanced.


Otherwise, for unbalanced 1/4" or RCA outputs, any cable with proper connectors will be sufficient, and it may be most convenient to use 1/8" line inputs if you don't mind them not locking like XLR's.
With a board patch, it's not like it's gonna get bumped around in your bag, so the locking connector should be less of a worry. Plus you might already have that cable and not have a pair of TRS > XLR handy.

If the output from the board is 1/4" balanced then it would be best to go TRS>TRS so it goes into the 1/4" line level input of the recorder. Line in on that unit is only 1/4" or unbalanced 1/8" stereo mini. The XLR inputs are microphone level only.

[Chrysler]

The XLR/TRS (LINE setting) have the highest max input and are balanced, so I opt for those in terms of minmaxing.

Totally agree, if the board operator is letting you have an XLR send.


Some boards like X32 have RCA or 1/4" outputs available.


If the 1/4" are balanced (three conductor, "TRS" = Tip-Ring-Sleeve) then it's beneficial to use TRS > XLR cabling and keep the connection balanced.


Otherwise, for unbalanced 1/4" or RCA outputs, any cable with proper connectors will be sufficient, and it may be most convenient to use 1/8" line inputs if you don't mind them not locking like XLR's.
With a board patch, it's not like it's gonna get bumped around in your bag, so the locking connector should be less of a worry. Plus you might already have that cable and not have a pair of TRS > XLR handy.

If the output from the board is 1/4" balanced then it would be best to go TRS>TRS so it goes into the 1/4" line level input of the recorder. Line in on that unit is only 1/4" or unbalanced 1/8" stereo mini. The XLR inputs are microphone level only.

Thanks for your suggestions ! .
How do i connect a Stereo 1/4" output from the soundboard to the Tascam to the 1/4" connector(s) ?

1: Do i have to use BOTH TRS Inputs of the Tascam ( i would need a y bracket cable that seperates Left and Right Channel from the soundboard output - is this balanced anymore? )?
2: Or is one of TRS Ports of the Tascam capable of recording a Stereo Signal  (so i could just use an ordinary 1xTRS to 1x TRS cable)?

[jefflester]

The XLR/TRS (LINE setting) have the highest max input and are balanced, so I opt for those in terms of minmaxing.

Totally agree, if the board operator is letting you have an XLR send.


Some boards like X32 have RCA or 1/4" outputs available.


If the 1/4" are balanced (three conductor, "TRS" = Tip-Ring-Sleeve) then it's beneficial to use TRS > XLR cabling and keep the connection balanced.


Otherwise, for unbalanced 1/4" or RCA outputs, any cable with proper connectors will be sufficient, and it may be most convenient to use 1/8" line inputs if you don't mind them not locking like XLR's.
With a board patch, it's not like it's gonna get bumped around in your bag, so the locking connector should be less of a worry. Plus you might already have that cable and not have a pair of TRS > XLR handy.

If the output from the board is 1/4" balanced then it would be best to go TRS>TRS so it goes into the 1/4" line level input of the recorder. Line in on that unit is only 1/4" or unbalanced 1/8" stereo mini. The XLR inputs are microphone level only.

Thanks for your suggestions ! .
How do i connect a Stereo 1/4" output from the soundboard to the Tascam to the 1/4" connector(s) ?

1: Do i have to use BOTH TRS Inputs of the Tascam ( i would need a y bracket cable that seperates Left and Right Channel from the soundboard output - is this balanced anymore? )?
2: Or is one of TRS Ports of the Tascam capable of recording a Stereo Signal  (so i could just use an ordinary 1xTRS to 1x TRS cable)?

For consumer electronics the mindset is that TRS means stereo. Not so in pro/PA gear*. TRS means balanced, just like an XLR cable. The TRS 1/4" out of the soundboard is not going to be a single jack carrying both L/R, there will be two of them, one for left and one for right. So you'd use two TRS 1/4" cables, one for each input on the Tascam.

*I mean obviously a 1/4" headphone jack/plug is TRS and that is used in pro gear.

[Chrysler]

Thanks!

One more question:

On the ZOOM F3 theres no gain settings for 32bit float recordings anymore (can/should be regulated in the post anyhow) and i was very happy that clipping and setting the gain during stealth-recording is not a problem anymore.
With the Tascam you are forced to set a gain on the input level of the mics again - why is that so? 

[mepaca]

In 32 bit float you can input a "gain" as such on both recorders but it is pretty inconsequential if you go under or over.

[Joop]

On the ZOOM F3 theres no gain settings for 32bit float recordings anymore (can/should be regulated in the post anyhow) and i was very happy that clipping and setting the gain during stealth-recording is not a problem anymore.
With the Tascam you are forced to set a gain on the input level of the mics again - why is that so? 

Input amplifiers don't have unlimited input voltage. With Zoom F3 its +4dBu, after that you have a problem, 32-bit float or not. With Tascam you have to set the record level to "normal" levels, in case of a very loud noise you have room to process that without clipping. Not the same as with Zoom, there you can clip. The room in 32-bit float is not usable because there are no "op amps" which can process that kind of dynamic range, same for the AD converter. At best the dynamic room will be somewhere between 130 dB to a little more then 140 dB, depending on what ADC is used. Above that you will have distortion, no matter what.

[Chrysler]

Ok, its a safety-net to level down the analogue input stages to prevent them from clipping on very loud shows and maybe somewhat limited mics.
So the factory preset is +4dB - fixed on the zoom vs. +16dB - changeable on the tascam.
i never had an issue with clipping using the zoom f3 so far.
i guess setting a more conservative +4dB on the tascam as well is the safer setting or can this lead to more noise if i have to level up the recording in case its very quiet?
thanks for your input/help

[Joop]

So the factory preset is +4dB - fixed on the zoom vs. +16dB - changeable on the tascam.
i guess setting a more conservative +4dB on the tascam as well is the safer setting or can this lead to more noise if i have to level up the recording in case its very quiet?

According Curtis Judd the Zoom F3 has 10dB more noise compared to the Tascam FR-AV2. I don't know where you get that +16dB from, the maximum input for  mic with the Tascam is also +4dBu. For setting level on meters, set the nominal level at -12dB or try -6dB when recording in 32-bit float mode. You won't hear noise from the Tascam, so if you hear noise its time to investigate in a better set of mics or if on TRS go to XLR. Cranking up the record volume does not change the noise, only amplify it.

[TheJez]

Thanks!

One more question:

On the ZOOM F3 theres no gain settings for 32bit float recordings anymore (can/should be regulated in the post anyhow) and i was very happy that clipping and setting the gain during stealth-recording is not a problem anymore.
With the Tascam you are forced to set a gain on the input level of the mics again - why is that so? 

I’m not sure if the previous responses really answered your question clearly, so to avoid any confusion:
You cannot change the analog input gain on this Tascam! It is fixed!
The ‘record level’ you can set works post ADC. This means it doesn’t really matter what you set it to, you can always normalize it afterwards without any quality impact. (Only if you want to play the recording on the tascam itself, it would be nice to have decent levels which won’t clip during playback.)
Personally I wouldn’t worry at all about the record level and certainly not change it during recording! It won’t bring any benefit recording-quality-wise, and would only complicate things during post processing.

[Joop]

You cannot change the analog input gain on this Tascam! It is fixed!
The ‘record level’ you can set works post ADC. This means it doesn’t really matter what you set it to, you can always normalize it afterwards without any quality impact. (Only if you want to play the recording on the tascam itself, it would be nice to have decent levels which won’t clip during playback.)
Personally I wouldn’t worry at all about the record level and certainly not change it during recording! It won’t bring any benefit recording-quality-wise, and would only complicate things during post processing.

Don't want to make a war out of it, but please read page 10 or 30 in the manual, mind that the Tascam also can record with 24-bit and you need in that case to controle record level BEFORE it hits the ADC. Next, it make no sense in record level behind the ADC, in case of very soft sounds just above the noise floor you never get the bottom out of the first stage bucket when it comes to noise. Due to the nature of maximum levels the preamp is fixed as you suggest.

[morst]

If the output from the board is 1/4" balanced then it would be best to go TRS>TRS so it goes into the 1/4" line level input of the recorder. Line in on that unit is only 1/4" or unbalanced 1/8" stereo mini. The XLR inputs are microphone level only.

haha you caught me not owning the unit or reading the manual! Thanks for the correction! Makes a big difference, I'm confident!
Yeah, use 1/4 TRS to 1/4 TRS if possible.

[TheJez]

You cannot change the analog input gain on this Tascam! It is fixed!
The ‘record level’ you can set works post ADC. This means it doesn’t really matter what you set it to, you can always normalize it afterwards without any quality impact. (Only if you want to play the recording on the tascam itself, it would be nice to have decent levels which won’t clip during playback.)
Personally I wouldn’t worry at all about the record level and certainly not change it during recording! It won’t bring any benefit recording-quality-wise, and would only complicate things during post processing.

Don't want to make a war out of it, but please read page 10 or 30 in the manual, mind that the Tascam also can record with 24-bit and you need in that case to controle record level BEFORE it hits the ADC. Next, it make no sense in record level behind the ADC, in case of very soft sounds just above the noise floor you never get the bottom out of the first stage bucket when it comes to noise. Due to the nature of maximum levels the preamp is fixed as you suggest.

It’s good to have discussion, and I must admit I assumed recording at 32-bit floating point. However, even when recording at 24 bits it doesn’t necessarily mean there must be analog gain control. The device can operate completely identical regardless recording to 24 bit fixed point or 32 bit floating point storage, apart from that in 24-bit the samples for the output file are converted from the internally used 32bfp to 24bit before storing. And in that case, it would be wise to make sure (by setting the fully digital ‘record level’) that the samples are not too quiet and won’t go over 0dbFS.
It seems Tascam has confirmed there is no analog gain control whatsoever on this device, regardless of the used storage format. See https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=205834.msg2420100#msg2420100.
Of course the dual-ADC setup helps to properly deal with both quiet and loud signals.

[Kyle K]

The XLR/TRS (LINE setting) have the highest max input and are balanced, so I opt for those in terms of minmaxing.

Totally agree, if the board operator is letting you have an XLR send.


Some boards like X32 have RCA or 1/4" outputs available.


If the 1/4" are balanced (three conductor, "TRS" = Tip-Ring-Sleeve) then it's beneficial to use TRS > XLR cabling and keep the connection balanced.


Otherwise, for unbalanced 1/4" or RCA outputs, any cable with proper connectors will be sufficient, and it may be most convenient to use 1/8" line inputs if you don't mind them not locking like XLR's.
With a board patch, it's not like it's gonna get bumped around in your bag, so the locking connector should be less of a worry. Plus you might already have that cable and not have a pair of TRS > XLR handy.

If the output from the board is 1/4" balanced then it would be best to go TRS>TRS so it goes into the 1/4" line level input of the recorder. Line in on that unit is only 1/4" or unbalanced 1/8" stereo mini. The XLR inputs are microphone level only.

Huh? Where is this coming from? You are able to set it to LINE level and record via XLR - max input is +24 dBu regardless of XLR vs TRS when set to LINE, no?

[Ozpeter]

According Curtis Judd the Zoom F3 has 10dB more noise compared to the Tascam FR-AV2.

I don't know where he gets that from - according to the very respected Avisoft measurements Equivalent Input Noise (EIN)
impedance: 150 ohms for the two devices is within 1dBu with the F3 being that tiny bit in front.