Topic: Tascam FR-AV2 new compact 32bit float recorder.

[TheJez]

You cannot change the analog input gain on this Tascam! It is fixed!
The ‘record level’ you can set works post ADC. This means it doesn’t really matter what you set it to, you can always normalize it afterwards without any quality impact. (Only if you want to play the recording on the tascam itself, it would be nice to have decent levels which won’t clip during playback.)
Personally I wouldn’t worry at all about the record level and certainly not change it during recording! It won’t bring any benefit recording-quality-wise, and would only complicate things during post processing.

Don't want to make a war out of it, but please read page 10 or 30 in the manual, mind that the Tascam also can record with 24-bit and you need in that case to controle record level BEFORE it hits the ADC. Next, it make no sense in record level behind the ADC, in case of very soft sounds just above the noise floor you never get the bottom out of the first stage bucket when it comes to noise. Due to the nature of maximum levels the preamp is fixed as you suggest.

It’s good to have discussion, and I must admit I assumed recording at 32-bit floating point. However, even when recording at 24 bits it doesn’t necessarily mean there must be analog gain control. The device can operate completely identical regardless recording to 24 bit fixed point or 32 bit floating point storage, apart from that in 24-bit the samples for the output file are converted from the internally used 32bfp to 24bit before storing. And in that case, it would be wise to make sure (by setting the fully digital ‘record level’) that the samples are not too quiet and won’t go over 0dbFS.
It seems Tascam has confirmed there is no analog gain control whatsoever on this device, regardless of the used storage format. See https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=205834.msg2420100#msg2420100.
Of course the dual-ADC setup helps to properly deal with both quiet and loud signals.

A portion from the manual is attached here that kind of confirms too that there is no analog gain control. If there is analog overload, they advice to lower the volume of the source or to move the mics away from the source. They do not tell you to lower the 'record level', as that won't help to relieve the analog part.

It's a pitty you cannot see how much you're away from analog overload while recording, only when you've hit the limit... 

[TheJez]

The XLR/TRS (LINE setting) have the highest max input and are balanced, so I opt for those in terms of minmaxing.

Totally agree, if the board operator is letting you have an XLR send.


Some boards like X32 have RCA or 1/4" outputs available.


If the 1/4" are balanced (three conductor, "TRS" = Tip-Ring-Sleeve) then it's beneficial to use TRS > XLR cabling and keep the connection balanced.


Otherwise, for unbalanced 1/4" or RCA outputs, any cable with proper connectors will be sufficient, and it may be most convenient to use 1/8" line inputs if you don't mind them not locking like XLR's.
With a board patch, it's not like it's gonna get bumped around in your bag, so the locking connector should be less of a worry. Plus you might already have that cable and not have a pair of TRS > XLR handy.

If the output from the board is 1/4" balanced then it would be best to go TRS>TRS so it goes into the 1/4" line level input of the recorder. Line in on that unit is only 1/4" or unbalanced 1/8" stereo mini. The XLR inputs are microphone level only.

Huh? Where is this coming from? You are able to set it to LINE level and record via XLR - max input is +24 dBu regardless of XLR vs TRS when set to LINE, no?

I thought mepaca was right about that. I too thought that the FR-AV2 had three completely independent pairs of inputs TRS/LINE, XLR/MIC and minijack/EXT, each with their own electrical characteristics, and you had to choose which of these three you want to use during recording through the setup menu. However, I just tested this by connecting my bass guitar (the only thing I have at home with TRS-ish connector) to TRS, and then switch the input between LINE and MIC. Lo-and-behold, with both I see the meters go when playing the strings! So it seems it works just like the Zoom F3 where you can plug into XLR or TRS and select LINE/MIC from the input setup menu.

Edit: originally I made an incorrect remark here about the Zoom F3 having TRS inputs, which is not the case. I must have mixed up the H1XLR… Thanks for pointing this out!

[Rairun]

One difference though: On the Tascam you cannot enable phantom power on the TRS plugs (only on XLR), while with the Zoom F3 you can...

No TRS on the Zoom F3 AFAIK.

[unidentified]

Concur with the above post from Rairun

[TheJez]

One difference though: On the Tascam you cannot enable phantom power on the TRS plugs (only on XLR), while with the Zoom F3 you can...

No TRS on the Zoom F3 AFAIK.

Sorry, my bad. Been reading too many spec sheets and manuals lately. I shouldn’t say things about devices i don’t own…
Will amend…

[TheJez]

New firmware is out! No really spectacular changes…

Firmware V1.03
The frame rate can now be changed at any time, except when the timecode is being synchronized from an external source.The menu structure and operation have also been updated accordingly. For details on the changes, please refer to　"15. Timecode functions" in the Owner's Manual.
Operation stability has been improved in other ways.

See https://tascam.com/us/product/fr-av2/support

[unclehoolio]

You cannot change the analog input gain on this Tascam! It is fixed!
The ‘record level’ you can set works post ADC. This means it doesn’t really matter what you set it to, you can always normalize it afterwards without any quality impact. (Only if you want to play the recording on the tascam itself, it would be nice to have decent levels which won’t clip during playback.)
Personally I wouldn’t worry at all about the record level and certainly not change it during recording! It won’t bring any benefit recording-quality-wise, and would only complicate things during post processing.

Don't want to make a war out of it, but please read page 10 or 30 in the manual, mind that the Tascam also can record with 24-bit and you need in that case to controle record level BEFORE it hits the ADC. Next, it make no sense in record level behind the ADC, in case of very soft sounds just above the noise floor you never get the bottom out of the first stage bucket when it comes to noise. Due to the nature of maximum levels the preamp is fixed as you suggest.

It’s good to have discussion, and I must admit I assumed recording at 32-bit floating point. However, even when recording at 24 bits it doesn’t necessarily mean there must be analog gain control. The device can operate completely identical regardless recording to 24 bit fixed point or 32 bit floating point storage, apart from that in 24-bit the samples for the output file are converted from the internally used 32bfp to 24bit before storing. And in that case, it would be wise to make sure (by setting the fully digital ‘record level’) that the samples are not too quiet and won’t go over 0dbFS.
It seems Tascam has confirmed there is no analog gain control whatsoever on this device, regardless of the used storage format. See https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=205834.msg2420100#msg2420100.
Of course the dual-ADC setup helps to properly deal with both quiet and loud signals.

A portion from the manual is attached here that kind of confirms too that there is no analog gain control. If there is analog overload, they advice to lower the volume of the source or to move the mics away from the source. They do not tell you to lower the 'record level', as that won't help to relieve the analog part.

Indeed, it was these proposed solutions from this page in the manual that led me to seek clarification from Tascam on whether there was, or was not, gain control in the analog realm.  I suppose there is a 3rd option available for those whose mics (like my c480b's) have output pads:  enable the pads.

[Ozpeter]

 I bought it on a whim and have way too much gear already.

Possibly you are not the first person here to experience those sentiments, regardless of what the latest purchase was...!

[TheJez]

You cannot change the analog input gain on this Tascam! It is fixed!
The ‘record level’ you can set works post ADC. This means it doesn’t really matter what you set it to, you can always normalize it afterwards without any quality impact. (Only if you want to play the recording on the tascam itself, it would be nice to have decent levels which won’t clip during playback.)
Personally I wouldn’t worry at all about the record level and certainly not change it during recording! It won’t bring any benefit recording-quality-wise, and would only complicate things during post processing.

Don't want to make a war out of it, but please read page 10 or 30 in the manual, mind that the Tascam also can record with 24-bit and you need in that case to controle record level BEFORE it hits the ADC. Next, it make no sense in record level behind the ADC, in case of very soft sounds just above the noise floor you never get the bottom out of the first stage bucket when it comes to noise. Due to the nature of maximum levels the preamp is fixed as you suggest.

It’s good to have discussion, and I must admit I assumed recording at 32-bit floating point. However, even when recording at 24 bits it doesn’t necessarily mean there must be analog gain control. The device can operate completely identical regardless recording to 24 bit fixed point or 32 bit floating point storage, apart from that in 24-bit the samples for the output file are converted from the internally used 32bfp to 24bit before storing. And in that case, it would be wise to make sure (by setting the fully digital ‘record level’) that the samples are not too quiet and won’t go over 0dbFS.
It seems Tascam has confirmed there is no analog gain control whatsoever on this device, regardless of the used storage format. See https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=205834.msg2420100#msg2420100.
Of course the dual-ADC setup helps to properly deal with both quiet and loud signals.

A portion from the manual is attached here that kind of confirms too that there is no analog gain control. If there is analog overload, they advice to lower the volume of the source or to move the mics away from the source. They do not tell you to lower the 'record level', as that won't help to relieve the analog part.

Indeed, it was these proposed solutions from this page in the manual that led me to seek clarification from Tascam on whether there was, or was not, gain control in the analog realm.  I suppose there is a 3rd option available for those whose mics (like my c480b's) have output pads:  enable the pads.

Wouldn't switching to 'line input' practically do the same thing? Of course that would only work for the TRS or XLR inputs, not for the 3.5mm EXT input.

I have been wondering about finding out 'how far we'd be from analog overload' during recording, e.g. when using sensitive mics for loud rock shows. I was thinking that if you'd set the 'record level' to +0dB, you might get analog overload if you then go over 0dB on your meters. I did a test and it seems I was right about this: I set the 'record level' to +0dB, connected a pair of Clippy mics to the recorder and put the mics in front of my home stereo speakers. Then I slowly cranked up the volume and once the meters hit the 0dB on the level indicators, the complete VU bars turned red, meaning analog overload according to the manual. Cool!
You don't necessarily need to set the record level to +0dB to make use of this knowledge. E.g. if we set the level to +20dB, we now know we won't get analog overload as long as the VU bars stay below +20dB. (I know, they only go to +6dB, but just to paint the picture...)

[goodcooker]

I bought it on a whim and have way too much gear already.

Possibly you are not the first person here to experience those sentiments, regardless of what the latest purchase was...!

I thought it would be a good solution to having a small recorder to run my mini mics without a battery box but honestly for the few occasions I need to be small the A10 and battery box does just fine and I have a DR100 with an Oade preamp mod or a Mixpre6 to use for P48 mics. I need to shift some of my gear $ into my multitrack rig - I had to buy a snake and an ADAT interface to get my channel count up to 18 tracks.

[unclehoolio]

You cannot change the analog input gain on this Tascam! It is fixed!
The ‘record level’ you can set works post ADC. This means it doesn’t really matter what you set it to, you can always normalize it afterwards without any quality impact. (Only if you want to play the recording on the tascam itself, it would be nice to have decent levels which won’t clip during playback.)
Personally I wouldn’t worry at all about the record level and certainly not change it during recording! It won’t bring any benefit recording-quality-wise, and would only complicate things during post processing.

Don't want to make a war out of it, but please read page 10 or 30 in the manual, mind that the Tascam also can record with 24-bit and you need in that case to controle record level BEFORE it hits the ADC. Next, it make no sense in record level behind the ADC, in case of very soft sounds just above the noise floor you never get the bottom out of the first stage bucket when it comes to noise. Due to the nature of maximum levels the preamp is fixed as you suggest.

It’s good to have discussion, and I must admit I assumed recording at 32-bit floating point. However, even when recording at 24 bits it doesn’t necessarily mean there must be analog gain control. The device can operate completely identical regardless recording to 24 bit fixed point or 32 bit floating point storage, apart from that in 24-bit the samples for the output file are converted from the internally used 32bfp to 24bit before storing. And in that case, it would be wise to make sure (by setting the fully digital ‘record level’) that the samples are not too quiet and won’t go over 0dbFS.
It seems Tascam has confirmed there is no analog gain control whatsoever on this device, regardless of the used storage format. See https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=205834.msg2420100#msg2420100.
Of course the dual-ADC setup helps to properly deal with both quiet and loud signals.

A portion from the manual is attached here that kind of confirms too that there is no analog gain control. If there is analog overload, they advice to lower the volume of the source or to move the mics away from the source. They do not tell you to lower the 'record level', as that won't help to relieve the analog part.

Indeed, it was these proposed solutions from this page in the manual that led me to seek clarification from Tascam on whether there was, or was not, gain control in the analog realm.  I suppose there is a 3rd option available for those whose mics (like my c480b's) have output pads:  enable the pads.

Wouldn't switching to 'line input' practically do the same thing? Of course that would only work for the TRS or XLR inputs, not for the 3.5mm EXT input.

Unless I am not recalling it correctly:  unlike the F3, +48v power is not available for 'Line In' mode on the AV2.  This difference is where the F3 has an advantage over the Tascam unit, when it comes to using mics that require phantom power.

[Rairun]

You cannot change the analog input gain on this Tascam! It is fixed!
The ‘record level’ you can set works post ADC. This means it doesn’t really matter what you set it to, you can always normalize it afterwards without any quality impact. (Only if you want to play the recording on the tascam itself, it would be nice to have decent levels which won’t clip during playback.)
Personally I wouldn’t worry at all about the record level and certainly not change it during recording! It won’t bring any benefit recording-quality-wise, and would only complicate things during post processing.

Don't want to make a war out of it, but please read page 10 or 30 in the manual, mind that the Tascam also can record with 24-bit and you need in that case to controle record level BEFORE it hits the ADC. Next, it make no sense in record level behind the ADC, in case of very soft sounds just above the noise floor you never get the bottom out of the first stage bucket when it comes to noise. Due to the nature of maximum levels the preamp is fixed as you suggest.

It’s good to have discussion, and I must admit I assumed recording at 32-bit floating point. However, even when recording at 24 bits it doesn’t necessarily mean there must be analog gain control. The device can operate completely identical regardless recording to 24 bit fixed point or 32 bit floating point storage, apart from that in 24-bit the samples for the output file are converted from the internally used 32bfp to 24bit before storing. And in that case, it would be wise to make sure (by setting the fully digital ‘record level’) that the samples are not too quiet and won’t go over 0dbFS.
It seems Tascam has confirmed there is no analog gain control whatsoever on this device, regardless of the used storage format. See https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=205834.msg2420100#msg2420100.
Of course the dual-ADC setup helps to properly deal with both quiet and loud signals.

A portion from the manual is attached here that kind of confirms too that there is no analog gain control. If there is analog overload, they advice to lower the volume of the source or to move the mics away from the source. They do not tell you to lower the 'record level', as that won't help to relieve the analog part.

Indeed, it was these proposed solutions from this page in the manual that led me to seek clarification from Tascam on whether there was, or was not, gain control in the analog realm.  I suppose there is a 3rd option available for those whose mics (like my c480b's) have output pads:  enable the pads.

Wouldn't switching to 'line input' practically do the same thing? Of course that would only work for the TRS or XLR inputs, not for the 3.5mm EXT input.

Unless I am not recalling it correctly:  unlike the F3, +48v power is not available for 'Line In' mode on the AV2.  This difference is where the F3 has an advantage over the Tascam unit, when it comes to using mics that require phantom power.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but the Zoom F3 doesn't even have a 'Line In' mode as such, which would skip the preamp. It's essentially the same analogue path but with a -20 dB pad in front of it. It serves the same purpose when managing levels (i.e. the use case we are discussing here), but the device is not really made for people who for example want to use an external preamp for colouration or less noise.

But then again, I'd think the AV2 would be the same? Line in mode should just be a pad too? Which makes the absence of phantom power a little baffling.

[unidentified]

The F3's preamps are pretty darn quiet, so I certainly don't feel the need to put an additional external preamp in front of that device.

[grawk]

people use external preamps because they like how they color the sound.

[voltronic]

people use external preamps because they like how they color the sound.

While this might be true some of the time, there are lots of people who use external preamps just as often because they like how they don't color the sound and/or provide other benefits. The external preamp might have higher gain, lower noise, more extended and flat frequency response, or a host of other things that are superior to the built-in preamps, which are often compromised out of necessity to fit a price point and form factor. There are some expensive preamps from brands like Neve or API that may purposely add color, but then you have brands like Pueblo, Millenia, and Grace which are known for ultimate transparency.