Topic: Tascam FR-AV2 new compact 32bit float recorder.

[TheJez]

No dust here…
I have the Bluetooth dongle, do you have too? Maybe if not, it could be a way to get dust inside??

[TheJez]

Maybe this has been covered before, not sure, so please be forgiving...
I got a pair of SP-CMC-4U Phantom Powered microphones (AT853) to use with my FR-AV2. Some specs of the mics: sensitivity -39dBV/Pa, max SPL 139dB. The max input rating of the mic input of the FR-AV2 is +4dBU.
Over the weekend, I was taping a concert (32bfp, 96kHz), roughly 2 meters from the PA speakers. It was a rather quiet show, didn't even feel a remote need to wear hearing protection. The loudest sound was the kick of the bass drum. Short clip of the show here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Mw0_5OoWuo
During recording I noticed that the recorder was occasionally indicating 'overloaded input stage' by showing red VU-bars instead of the normal green ones. Indeed, occasionally the top of the waves for the bass drum kicks showed clipping after inspection in Audition.
It was not very severe, and I was able to repair it using RX de-clip. So I am quite happy with the result of the recording (see the mentioned youtube clip). However, it does worry me a lot in case of recording louder stuff than this. Personally I like the dry sound of near-PA recording, but if it is indeed so easy to overload the FR-AV2 (XLR) mic input, then this is likely not going to work very well with louder stuff.
Does any of you have similar experience with AT853 XLR mics attached to this recorder? Do I need to have bigger distance from PA? Any suggestions for (DIY) attenuation? Should I have bought the non-XLR versions of the mic with low-sensitivity mod? (There is no such mod for the XLR-version of these mics...)
Any thoughts would be appreciated...

[gmm6797]

Fwiw. I have taped dozens of show with my Schoeps MK4 to Baby nBox to FRAV2 with no issues like this.  I am often at shows that hurt my ears withot my earplugs and wouldn't consider ever taking them out. But I have never experienced what you are seeing. I try to run where I am just over at 32/192 and not let it "brick wall" the whole show and slightly treat the levels like I don't want them to clip, even if 32bit allows it

[dallman]

I am curious, because when I record 32Bit and have anything clip, I just bring the file down in post and as it was not the mics that clipped, the wave and file is fine. That is one great benefit of recording at 32Bit, especially with dual ADC's which the deck has. Did you mics clip? It does not seem like they should. Did the file show clipping after lowering the gain in post? If so, It'd seem to be a signal problem.

[TheJez]

I am curious, because when I record 32Bit and have anything clip, I just bring the file down in post and as it was not the mics that clipped, the wave and file is fine. That is one great benefit of recording at 32Bit, especially with dual ADC's which the deck has. Did you mics clip? It does not seem like they should. Did the file show clipping after lowering the gain in post? If so, It'd seem to be a signal problem.

Hi Dallman, I am fully aware of the features of 32bfp. Bringing down the levels in post did not make the clipping (topped-off waveforms) go away. Also it wasn't the mics that clipped. They can handle 139dB max SPL and the show was absolutely way below that.  A clear and indisputable sign that the analog input stage was overloaded was that during the show, the recorder occasionally indicated 'analog input stage overloaded' on its display. It does this by showing the input signal VU bars in red instead of the normal green color.
Is anybody else using the Tascam FR-AV2 with the SP-CMC-4U XLR mics and making loud concert recordings with these? Unfortunately I cannot switch to line-in input (+24dBu), as this recorder won't provide phantom power in that case 

[TheJez]

Fwiw. I have taped dozens of show with my Schoeps MK4 to Baby nBox to FRAV2 with no issues like this.  I am often at shows that hurt my ears withot my earplugs and wouldn't consider ever taking them out. But I have never experienced what you are seeing. I try to run where I am just over at 32/192 and not let it "brick wall" the whole show and slightly treat the levels like I don't want them to clip, even if 32bit allows it

Interesting... Why is it you use the nBox, exactly? Are you using the EXT input (mini-jack) or the XLR inputs? If XLR: Using MIC-in or LINE-in?
I'm not familiar with external pre-amps, but I have the impression that this nBox is a combined phantom power supply/pre-amp combination. As the FR-AV2 has very nice pre-amps itself and provides phantom power (when in XLR MIC-in mode), what would be the added benefit of the nBox?

[aaronji]

^ The Baby nBox is just a power supply. It is used with active cables and capsules.

[TheJez]

Maybe this has been covered before, not sure, so please be forgiving...
I got a pair of SP-CMC-4U Phantom Powered microphones (AT853) to use with my FR-AV2. Some specs of the mics: sensitivity -39dBV/Pa, max SPL 139dB. The max input rating of the mic input of the FR-AV2 is +4dBU.
Over the weekend, I was taping a concert (32bfp, 96kHz), roughly 2 meters from the PA speakers. It was a rather quiet show, didn't even feel a remote need to wear hearing protection. The loudest sound was the kick of the bass drum. Short clip of the show here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Mw0_5OoWuo
During recording I noticed that the recorder was occasionally indicating 'overloaded input stage' by showing red VU-bars instead of the normal green ones. Indeed, occasionally the top of the waves for the bass drum kicks showed clipping after inspection in Audition.
It was not very severe, and I was able to repair it using RX de-clip. So I am quite happy with the result of the recording (see the mentioned youtube clip). However, it does worry me a lot in case of recording louder stuff than this. Personally I like the dry sound of near-PA recording, but if it is indeed so easy to overload the FR-AV2 (XLR) mic input, then this is likely not going to work very well with louder stuff.
Does any of you have similar experience with AT853 XLR mics attached to this recorder? Do I need to have bigger distance from PA? Any suggestions for (DIY) attenuation? Should I have bought the non-XLR versions of the mic with low-sensitivity mod? (There is no such mod for the XLR-version of these mics...)
Any thoughts would be appreciated...

Follow-up: I got myself a pair of inline switchable -10/-20/-30dB attenuators (JTS MA-123) and used these to attenuate the mics down by -10dB while recording another show. It was a not-loud-at-all show, recording about 5 meters from the PA. With the -10dB attenuating and the 'record level' (AKA post-adc amplification) of the FR-AV2 set to 0dB, the recording peaks at -11dB. So I would have been ok without the attenuators, but it would have been 'on the edge'. If the show would have been a bit louder, or if I would have been a bit closer to the PA, I certainly would have been overloading the analog input again if it weren't for the attenuation. I think that with the -10dB attenuation, I should be safe now up to the point where the AT853's hit their max spl levels...

[Iku]

I'm very new to recording, so if I use mics with SPL max 130dB (connected through EXT/IN), would +4 dB be good setting on FR-AV2 at loud concert? Or Should I still monitor it and adjust while recording?

[grawk]

As long as you aren’t overloading the input you are good no matter what setting

[gmm6797]

As long as you aren’t overloading the input you are good no matter what setting

How do you measure the "overload of the input"?

[grawk]

From the manual:

[datbrad]

I still don't understand the narrative that the inputs are easily overloaded. A microphone with a sensitivity of 12 mV/PA (ex.Schoeps CMC6) will not output 4 dBV until the sound pressure hits 134 db. Anyone using a more sensitive microphone  for music/concert recording is crazy.

[gmm6797]

fwiw, i have recordings where the mics or preamp overload and not the deck

[grawk]

I still don't understand the narrative that the inputs are easily overloaded. A microphone with a sensitivity of 12 mV/PA (ex.Schoeps CMC6) will not output 4 dBV until the sound pressure hits 134 db. Anyone using a more sensitive microphone  for music/concert recording is crazy.

I didn't say it was easy, I just said that's the only thing you need to worry about with levels is to not overload the inputs on a deck like this.