Topic: Optimize my 4 channel technique

[captainentropy]

Many roads to Rome, and different ways to make a good recoding.  As I see it the posts above fall into two categories.  A few thoughts on both-

One approach is a straight near-spaced pair, such as Chris and Top Hat mention.  Two near-spaced pairs stacked atop each other also fit in this category:

• Straightforward and simple.  DIN, DINa, PAS.
• Looking at the photos (cool venue!), the room appears narrow with the balcony toward the back of the room, both of which make PAS attractive.  If going that route, I'd use whatever spacing Improved PAS suggests based on the PAS angle, which is likely going to be wider than the spacing of DIN if the PAS angle is narrower than 90deg (and it probably will be).

The other is a multi-microphone OMT type array. I've mentioned most of this elsewhere before, but here are the salient points:

• Imaging can be just as good if not better in comparison to to a straight 2-mic pair, yet can certainly suffer if not done correctly, same as with a straight 2ch stereo pair.  It does provide more opportunities to screw things up though!

OMT 4-

• X/Y Hypercards/supercards in the center.
• Cards or subcards spaced around 2 feet apart and angled +/-45 degrees.
  Why 2 feet? To accommodate the X/Y pair in the center.  DIN or NOS does not provide sufficient space between mics to properly accommodate a coincident pair in the middle. This is one of the "doing it correctly for good imaging" things.  If you want to run DIN or NOS, you don't need the center pair, but also won't benefit as much from its inclusion.
• If you want to run the cards or subcards in PAS, space them more widely than 2 feet to accommodate the narrower PAS angle.

OMT6 or higher-

• OMT 4 as above, with the addition of wide-spaced omnis.
• Omnis can certainly work indoors and in this situation, but not as the primary or even secondary pair.  I'd only include them as a 3rd pair, most likely used at a lower level in the mix than all other mics, to round out the low frequency response, provide open decorrelated ambience / room sound in support of the other pairs, and add a subtle sense of 3d depth to the imaging.  I'd probably space them 8 feet apart, at least 6, but you could go considerably wider since they'll be used in support of the other pairs.  When listened to in isolation the omni pair will probably sound boomy, but you'll not be using enough of that pair for the resulting recording to sound boomy. This is similar to how the X/Y pair in the center may not sound all that great on its own, but will work really well in combination with the ~2 foot spaced pair.
• If running omnis, I'd probably use cardioids instead of subcards in the ~2-foot near spaced pair position.  If not running omnis, I'd probably run subcards. This is based on the overall combined pattern of all mics in use together.
• If running the near-spaced pair in PAS instead of 90deg (+/-45deg), I'd spaced them more widely than 2 feet.. and would want to also run the wide-spaced omnis. Also based on the overall combined pattern of all mics in use together.

I love and appreciate every reply as this took time out of your day. Hopefully, the setup I end up with - which is largely dependent on how much the venue/situation allows - will guide others in similar considerations.

I suppose one of the big questions I have is how much my C414s can be of benefit here. A LD vs. SD question in a way. I do hesitate using omnis in this small space, though it does sound good. It used to be much worse before they installed the sound baffling on the walls (see the room pic), very tinny and too much reverbant sound. Maybe the C414 in a wide card setting spaced 6 ft apart?

It's also clear I need more mics and or mounts. The hypers I have (AK50) are actives and thus don't have anything in the realm of length with which I could do an XY (rear lobe considerations noted). I can't even get to an overlapping caps configuration (best is this in the pic below) I'm not even sure if this really counts as XY at this point. I think so... These actives don't have much width possible due to the cable lengths (18 inches, actually). My sub cards are actives as well (from the manuf), so the "bodies" are exactly 2" in length. So, XY is the same non-overlapping config again. These are two mic/cables of 6 ft in length, so I can go wide with them. But I know the DINa config sounds quite good (Avey Tare: https://archive.org/details/acollective2023-04-28.AveyTare ; GY!BE: https://archive.org/details/gybe2023-03-15.MC59W)

So, for XY, the only full body mics I have are Austrian Audio CC8 (cards). I can do PAS with them as well. Michael Zelner was there and had his MG 300s PAS. I'm sure it will sound awesome. The AK50s I usually use just for stealthing (hat) but I did PAS at the Warfield and that came out pretty sweet https://archive.org/details/acollective2022-08-10.aud.flac16

Sorry for all the minutia. All advice is helpful  though 

So, for the sake of having a source that I'm certain will come out great (same as last night's show) will be the MC59 mics in DIN. I could do PAS as well.

[Top Hat]

I love and appreciate every reply as this took time out of your day. Hopefully, the setup I end up with - which is largely dependent on how much the venue/situation allows - will guide others in similar considerations.

I suppose one of the big questions I have is how much my C414s can be of benefit here. A LD vs. SD question in a way. I do hesitate using omnis in this small space, though it does sound good. It used to be much worse before they installed the sound baffling on the walls (see the room pic), very tinny and too much reverbant sound. Maybe the C414 in a wide card setting spaced 6 ft apart?

It's also clear I need more mics and or mounts. The hypers I have (AK50) are actives and thus don't have anything in the realm of length with which I could do an XY (rear lobe considerations noted). I can't even get to an overlapping caps configuration (best is this in the pic below) I'm not even sure if this really counts as XY at this point. I think so... These actives don't have much width possible due to the cable lengths (18 inches, actually). My sub cards are actives as well (from the manuf), so the "bodies" are exactly 2" in length. So, XY is the same non-overlapping config again. These are two mic/cables of 6 ft in length, so I can go wide with them. But I know the DINa config sounds quite good (Avey Tare: https://archive.org/details/acollective2023-04-28.AveyTare ; GY!BE: https://archive.org/details/gybe2023-03-15.MC59W)

So, for XY, the only full body mics I have are Austrian Audio CC8 (cards). I can do PAS with them as well. Michael Zelner was there and had his MG 300s PAS. I'm sure it will sound awesome. The AK50s I usually use just for stealthing (hat) but I did PAS at the Warfield and that came out pretty sweet https://archive.org/details/acollective2022-08-10.aud.flac16

Sorry for all the minutia. All advice is helpful  though 

So, for the sake of having a source that I'm certain will come out great (same as last night's show) will be the MC59 mics in DIN. I could do PAS as well.

Not sure if you were aware of this but in your photo your mics are mounted backward in the mount. Caps should be flipped the other way and R facing R and L,L. In XY the caps need to be stacked one on top of each other for proper imaging. SRS does have mounts for this btw.

[Gutbucket]

Maybe the C414 in a wide card setting spaced 6 ft apart?

You will be getting the primary direct-arriving sound from the two forward-oriented directional mic pairs, which are the most important ones. The additional optional omnis will contribute bass fullness and sort of sense of "atmospheric openness" and depth, but those things won't be enhanced by making the omnis more directional or pointing them forward.  You just won't be able to rely on the omnis as the primary pair or even lean as hard on them in the mix as you might otherwise.  They'll only be optional extras and you may not end up using much from that pair at all.  I'd not worry to much about including them.  Just a nice to have option in addition to the other two pairs if not a a hassle to setup and run.

It's also clear I need more mics and or mounts. The hypers I have (AK50) are actives and thus don't have anything in the realm of length with which I could do an XY (rear lobe considerations noted). I can't even get to an overlapping caps configuration (best is this in the pic below) I'm not even sure if this really counts as XY at this point.

That config may work fine for X/Y.  Its not perfectly coincident but pretty close.  What's the spacing between capsule centers, about an inch or so? That would make it effectively coincident up through the most critical midrange frequency region.  Best if you can check it first, maybe with a quick recording the radio or something.  Thing to listen for is high frequency coloration / weirdness.  Can also hinge somewhat on the mics being used and their phase response.

Might consider running the AKGs in X/Y in the middle if you can arrange for that..

..or the AKGs in Mid/Side!  Another M/S option would be one AK50s pointing directly forward as Mid + one 414 above or below it as Side.

Options.

[Gutbucket]

I'll throw another M/S idea out there, just in case you have any interest and if able to arrange for it..

As mentioned, I'd probably use both AKGs as center M/S pair, or one AK50 as Mid (which I suspect would work really well).  That would make the coincident center pair highly directional toward the stage and provide sharp, solid center imaging.  Combine that with the subcards in the near-spaced position out to either side of the center M/S pair.  I generally like having the more directional mics in the center of the array and the less directional ones spaced.  Don't really need the omnis if using the subcards that way.  And that arrangement sort of hedges the bet since you already know your subcards work well there in DIN, and in this case they'd be angled the same, just spaced twice as far apart with the more-directional M/S pair in the middle between them.


But.. you could also flip the pattern distribution of the array "inside out" by using a less directional Mid in combination with a more directional near-spaced pair in PAS.  Use one of the subcards as Mid, and use your more directional hypers or cardioids as near-spaced PAS pair to either side of the center M/S pair.  In this case because of the more open Mid, I'd want the spaced directional pair in PAS and pretty directional - hyper, super, cardioid at least.

Focker posted a couple examples of an arrangement similar to that in the OMT thread recently.  Worked out quite nicely I think, although I've yet to give the second one a listen. This is X/Y subcards in the center with supercards spaced 2 feet / 30 deg (presumably PAS or close to it)-

https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=204186.msg2425799#msg2425799

https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=204186.msg2427766#msg2427766

[captainentropy]

I love and appreciate every reply as this took time out of your day. Hopefully, the setup I end up with - which is largely dependent on how much the venue/situation allows - will guide others in similar considerations.

I suppose one of the big questions I have is how much my C414s can be of benefit here. A LD vs. SD question in a way. I do hesitate using omnis in this small space, though it does sound good. It used to be much worse before they installed the sound baffling on the walls (see the room pic), very tinny and too much reverbant sound. Maybe the C414 in a wide card setting spaced 6 ft apart?

It's also clear I need more mics and or mounts. The hypers I have (AK50) are actives and thus don't have anything in the realm of length with which I could do an XY (rear lobe considerations noted). I can't even get to an overlapping caps configuration (best is this in the pic below) I'm not even sure if this really counts as XY at this point. I think so... These actives don't have much width possible due to the cable lengths (18 inches, actually). My sub cards are actives as well (from the manuf), so the "bodies" are exactly 2" in length. So, XY is the same non-overlapping config again. These are two mic/cables of 6 ft in length, so I can go wide with them. But I know the DINa config sounds quite good (Avey Tare: https://archive.org/details/acollective2023-04-28.AveyTare ; GY!BE: https://archive.org/details/gybe2023-03-15.MC59W)

So, for XY, the only full body mics I have are Austrian Audio CC8 (cards). I can do PAS with them as well. Michael Zelner was there and had his MG 300s PAS. I'm sure it will sound awesome. The AK50s I usually use just for stealthing (hat) but I did PAS at the Warfield and that came out pretty sweet https://archive.org/details/acollective2022-08-10.aud.flac16

Sorry for all the minutia. All advice is helpful  though 

So, for the sake of having a source that I'm certain will come out great (same as last night's show) will be the MC59 mics in DIN. I could do PAS as well.

Not sure if you were aware of this but in your photo your mics are mounted backward in the mount. Caps should be flipped the other way and R facing R and L,L. In XY the caps need to be stacked one on top of each other for proper imaging. SRS does have mounts for this btw.

Yep, I know:
" I can't even get to an overlapping caps configuration (best is this in the pic below) I'm not even sure if this really counts as XY at this point. I think so..."

I said I think so, because I did see some people online using non-overlapping caps for XY. I wouldn't use this mount, just illustrating this is as close as I could reasonably get. Actually, I do have a mount that's ORTF that stacks the mics, and these actives get closer, but it's ORTF, so that resulting angle isn't the typical XY I see, though the angle doesn't have to a perfect 90 degree angle between the axis. 

[captainentropy]

Maybe the C414 in a wide card setting spaced 6 ft apart?

...

..or the AKGs in Mid/Side!  Another M/S option would be one AK50s pointing directly forward as Mid + one 414 above or below it as Side.

Options.

That's another question I had! I was under the impression that M/S is for stage/up-close miking. No? I mean, I know I can record in any angle and config I want, but that doesn't mean it's not recommended and would likely sound awful...

[captainentropy]

I'll throw another M/S idea out there, just in case you have any interest and if able to arrange for it..

As mentioned, I'd probably use both AKGs as center M/S pair, or one AK50 as Mid (which I suspect would work really well).  That would make the coincident center pair highly directional toward the stage and provide sharp, solid center imaging.  Combine that with the subcards in the near-spaced position out to either side of the center M/S pair.  I generally like having the more directional mics in the center of the array and the less directional ones spaced.  Don't really need the omnis if using the subcards that way.  And that arrangement sort of hedges the bet since you already know your subcards work well there in DIN, and in this case they'd be angled the same, just spaced twice as far apart with the more-directional M/S pair in the middle between them.


But.. you could also flip the pattern distribution of the array "inside out" by using a less directional Mid in combination with a more directional near-spaced pair in PAS.  Use one of the subcards as Mid, and use your more directional hypers or cardioids as near-spaced PAS pair to either side of the center M/S pair.  In this case because of the more open Mid, I'd want the spaced directional pair in PAS and pretty directional - hyper, super, cardioid at least.

Focker posted a couple examples of an arrangement similar to that in the OMT thread recently.  Worked out quite nicely I think, although I've yet to give the second one a listen. This is X/Y subcards in the center with supercards spaced 2 feet / 30 deg (presumably PAS or close to it)-

https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=204186.msg2425799#msg2425799

https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=204186.msg2427766#msg2427766

Ahhh! I suppose that answers the previous post. If I only kept reading....

Yeah, that would have been good to try.

What I ended up doing was the AKG C414s out wide (~8 ft) set to the wide card position. They were PAS, but the angle was so nearly straight it was basically A-B. The Nevaton MC59W mics I kept in the center, since I knew that would sound good.

I didn't choose omni for the C414 mics because I was talking to another taper who was their, and he said in that space, omni would pick up too much bar noise, as it's right below the balcony. Yeah, totally obvious the moment he said that.

Upon first listen the C414s sound great. Deeper, warmer bass than the SD mics. Doesn't sound boomy or janky in any way. The center-placed MC59W have better vocals pickup it seems, which I guess would be expected. Overall, I think this will sound great once mixed. Night one was great, but night two they were just more relaxed and "on". I guess it's the benefit of a good night's sleep not driving 500 miles (big tour bus)... 

I see a lot of shows here, so next time I'll see if I can try the M/S option.

Thanks for all your input!! 

[goodcooker]

Different folks use techniques in different ways so there's no way to know what's going to work in any given situation before actually trying it. Approaching with a best guess based on other's best practices and experience is a good jumping off place, though.

As Gut mentioned a Mid Side pair in the center is a great way to get both forward oriented focus on the long narrow room and gives the ability to adjust the mix later in post when you are in a controlled environment. If you can rig up one of your AKG LDs to use in Fig8 pattern any one of your other mics can serve as the mid based on how directional you want it. Here's a link to a UA article that specifically addresses doing it with 2 414s - https://www.uaudio.com/blogs/ua/mid-side-mic-recording?srsltid=AfmBOooZdWdL4AwfQonCmZIALqdjlXV6G10WGGx0_3Q2G_WEUWI56gjz

I'm in the camp that normally uses Mid/Side when close to (or on) the stage but it can certainly work from farther away. Here's an example from the back of the room - https://archive.org/details/mhb2008-07-23.midside.flac16 - and also uses two different types and brands of mics - a Peluso small diaphragm cardioid for the mid and an ADK TL for the side.

The flip side of having the flexibility in post is the need to settle on a mix and move forward. If you are a person that endlessly fiddles with things you may get stuck and never arrive on a mix you are happy with. I distribute my recordings after mixing and I often have a backlog of things that need attention so I can usually settle on a mix and go with it but there are countless tapers who have mentioned on the forum over the years that they have a lot of trouble getting finished. It's only natural - you want your efforts to be the best they can be to honor your work, the artist's performance and the enjoyment of the listener but sometimes you have to clear your plate and move on to the next.

I have that struggle with multitrack projects. I have a couple that I have remixed a few times and always feel it needs more work.

I love my wide cardioids so if it was me I'd run them spaced several feet and run something else in the middle. Fun to experiment and have options if you have the time, mounting gear, space and permission.

[Gutbucket]

Upon first listen the C414s sound great. Deeper, warmer bass than the SD mics. Doesn't sound boomy or janky in any way. The center-placed MC59W have better vocals pickup it seems, which I guess would be expected. Overall, I think this will sound great once mixed.

^
I like using my more directional mics in the center as coincident pair because of this.  Its the best way I've found to get clear vocals nailing down a rock-solid phase-free monophonic center playback image other than a soundboard feed.  Its a somewhat subtle imaging thing though - the deeper warmer stereophonic stuff manifesting outward from that solidly anchored and locked down, clear center.

[Gutbucket]

I was under the impression that M/S is for stage/up-close miking. No? I mean, I know I can record in any angle and config I want, but that doesn't mean it's not recommended and would likely sound awful...

^No hard and fast rules, but that tends to apply more so to a recording made with a single pair.  I prefer a Mid/Side center pair in my multi-mic arrays regardless of where I set them up for a few reasons.  Others prefer X/Y.  But..

Near-spaced can work too.  Here's one like that, a recent example from Grawk of subcards in DINa in the center rather than a coincident pair. In terms of directionality within the array itself, this one is also "inside out" with the less directional mics in the center and the more directional mics out in the wide-spaced position-

My recording of Trey from Tuesday was omt4ish.  4018as out wide, pointing at the outside of the stack, 4015gs DINa in the middle, on a single wide bar.  I mixed the 4018s -6db down from the 4015s

https://archive.org/details/ta-20250401_202504

I also uploaded the separate 4015gs and 4018 tracks

For a pair of subcardioids intended to be used on their own, DINa places the mics a bit too close together, and X/Y even more so (as in Focker's examples).  However when used in combination with a wider-spaced supercard pair in a 4 channel array, both configs work well in the center position. 

[Gutbucket]

Goodcooker's post insightfully spot on and good  advice. 

[captainentropy]

Thanks for clearing that up! I am absolutely going to do a M/S, I was just waiting for the right venue and all that. The Chapel will be great for that as the balcony is eminently clampable. I'm definitely going to try M/S for The Mermen at the Great American Music Hall in July. I did a stage lip recording of them a couple years ago that sounds so fantastic. No vocals. Just an instrumental band. So, setting up on the front of the stage should be no problem. Probably best for another thread for that, but I should be able to clamp a bunch of mics (omnis?) on the balconies (left and right), desktop type stands on stage, etc. Band sets up with big custom made speaker cabinets. Guitar on the left, bass on the right, drums in the middle. Great imaging possibility. Plus, they put on these fabulous 3 hr. sets.

[rocksuitcase]

I was under the impression that M/S is for stage/up-close miking. No? I mean, I know I can record in any angle and config I want, but that doesn't mean it's not recommended and would likely sound awful...

^No hard and fast rules, but that tends to apply more so to a recording made with a single pair.  I prefer a Mid/Side center pair in my multi-mic arrays regardless of where I set them up for a few reasons.  Others prefer X/Y.  But..

Near-spaced can work too.  Here's one like that, a recent example from Grawk of subcards in DINa in the center rather than a coincident pair. In terms of directionality within the array itself, this one is also "inside out" with the less directional mics in the center and the more directional mics out in the wide-spaced position-

My recording of Trey from Tuesday was omt4ish.  4018as out wide, pointing at the outside of the stack, 4015gs DINa in the middle, on a single wide bar.  I mixed the 4018s -6db down from the 4015s

https://archive.org/details/ta-20250401_202504

I also uploaded the separate 4015gs and 4018 tracks

For a pair of subcardioids intended to be used on their own, DINa places the mics a bit too close together, and X/Y even more so (as in Focker's examples).  However when used in combination with a wider-spaced supercard pair in a 4 channel array, both configs work well in the center position.

to the OP: here we used an MS pair as part of a OMT6 type array:
https://archive.org/details/eggy2025-03-13.dpa4060MSc426ck61

DAUD OMT6
microphones: ch1/2 DPA 4060 Omni spread 5 feet [2.5 from center]
ch3/4 AKG c461 ULS AB spread 3 feet > Grace Lunatec V2
ch 5 AKG c426 cardioid 0' > Sonosax SX-M2D2
ch6 = AKG c426 fig8 > Sonosax SX-M2D2
recorder: Tascam DR-680|SD

This was a front row balcony setup in a small 300 person room. and the M/S was a stereo microphone AKGc426 with the FWD capsule in cardioid and the other in figure8. The mics were less than 40 feet from the stacks (closer to 30 in that room)
kindms has run his AKGc426 in M/s a few times from farther back, but I'd say he has reserved that fr close set ups. OTH, goodcookers mention of gaining forward oriented focus using the Mid is certainly a GREAT point.

[Gutbucket]

There are a few different ways to mix it when using a center Mid/Side pair.  I like to adjust L/R balance of the flanking near-spaced pair on its own first, then bring up the level of the Mid channel panned to center (or if working with a L/R stereo output from the M/S decoder, dial it to 100% Mid / 0% Side) until you get a nice smooth image balancing good width and a solid center with clean, articulate vocals from just that 3-channel L/C/R set, then bring up the Side channel (or adjust the M/S ratio down from 100% Mid to include more Side) to taste.  Tweak balances and ratio further as needed from there.  In this case the rig will be centered in the balcony, so as long as the PA is relatively balanced side to side you probably won't need to do this- but if the recording sounded off center you could pan the Mid slightly one way or the other to push the center content back to center without causing the L/R energy distribution to get overly lopsided like it would if trying to do the same using a traditional stereo balance control.

Alternately  try dialing in the M/S ratio of the center pair on its own to taste first, then bringing up the near-spaced pair. 

^ Good to try it both ways and listen for how different / how similar the results from the approaches end up sounding.  You are essentially introducing difference-signal content to the monophonic Center via both the fig-8 Side channel and via the near-spaced pair, so you may find you end up using less Side channel in the 4-channel mix than you otherwise would if listening to the M/S pair by itself in isolation. Or maybe not. Whatever sounds right.  The two difference-signals will have a somewhat different nature and flavor from each other, and that's what provides a lot of the sonic magic and sense of depth.  Carefully tweaking how much Side channel you use in the mix provides a very cool degree of flexibility in finding the most engaging balance between the 2-channel mix sounding more open, wide and spacious yet looser and more diffuse, verses sounding tight and sharp, yet flatter, less open and less 3-dimensional.  A goldilocks tweak that allows you to get the imaging feel just right.


You can go deeper and EQ the Side channel in various ways, and/or the Mid channel differently than the L/R pair and other things without significantly altering the overall EQ balance of the 2-channel mixdown output, but that's getting pretty deep in the weeds.

Have fun with it! 

[captainentropy]

ch 5 AKG c426 cardioid 0' > Sonosax SX-M2D2
ch6 = AKG c426 fig8 > Sonosax SX-M2D2

Oh wow. I had to look closely at that mic. It's got two diaphragms stacked on top of each other. One you used in fig. 8 the other in cardioid. Very cool. I'm gonna look into something like that. I don't know about carrying around that big control box it comes with.

Nice recording too. Very clean sounding.