Topic: M-Audio Flash Tracker details

[thegreatgumbino]

Thanks for the links on the RA USB's.  I was checking in at work and didn't want to search around.  +T

I didn't realize the VR box came with a USB option.  That's sweet info to know!!

[nickgregory]

how would you process a 4GB wav tho

Well if it was recorded in wav64 or SDIIextended there are plenty of programs on the Mac to open it.

open it in your eav editor of choice...

unless you are running win98 - then you would be in trouble...

wavelab and adobe audition will not play nicely with 4 Gb files...it will have to be split prior to opening in those programs

[silentmark]

mr oade:

"Sadly this thing uses a digital level control that probably cannot be bypassed or improved. Fine for MP3 users or ENG but not so great for tapers or audiophiles. Think JB3/MD analog input sound quality. Still, the promise of this thing is as a non resampling 24 bit storage device for the Grace V3, Apogee MiniMe or MOD UA5. Until we see Microphone Preamps with A/D converters that include CF slots, something like this unit is our best hope for low cost storage.
Let us all hope they managed to include a good quality 24 bit S/PDIF input..Doug"

Ummm so what does this mean exactly ? I am confused on what a "digi level control" is ...

[nickgregory]

"Let us all hope they managed to include a good quality 24 bit S/PDIF input..Doug"

So I am relatively non technical...so I may be missing something here, but it was my understanding that S/PDIF was S/PDIF...a digi singal was fed and captured..is this not the case dependning on the quality of the design/components?  Engineer types, any opinions?

[MattD]

Nick, you're right. I'm not sure what Doug is referring to here, but so long as the unit locks to the external ADC, it'll be fine. Perhaps he's referring to S/PDIF units that have trouble playing nicely because they use some weird voltage, rather than adhering to the specification.

[JasonSobel]

mr oade:

"Sadly this thing uses a digital level control that probably cannot be bypassed or improved. Fine for MP3 users or ENG but not so great for tapers or audiophiles. Think JB3/MD analog input sound quality. Still, the promise of this thing is as a non resampling 24 bit storage device for the Grace V3, Apogee MiniMe or MOD UA5. Until we see Microphone Preamps with A/D converters that include CF slots, something like this unit is our best hope for low cost storage.
Let us all hope they managed to include a good quality 24 bit S/PDIF input..Doug"

Ummm so what does this mean exactly ? I am confused on what a "digi level control" is ...

It means that when going analog in, it controls the levels in the digital domain, not in an analog pre-amp section.  this means that the analog inputs are not as desirable as they could be.  when sending it a digital S/PDIF signal, however, the levels will be controlled by equipment previous in the recording chain (i.e. my V3), so all it will do is record the ones and zeroes.  Assuming what Doug says is true, this devices will still be perfect for me and everyone else who just wanted to record a 24 bit signal coming from their A/D converter.  but it means that stealth tapers that wanted to use it as an all-in-one unit may be less than satisfied.

So I am relatively non technical...so I may be missing something here, but it was my understanding that S/PDIF was S/PDIF...a digi singal was fed and captured..is this not the case dependning on the quality of the design/components?  Engineer types, any opinions?

I think what Doug is saying is that some digital inputs resample the incoming data stream, therefore a "good quality" S/PDIF input would be one that doesn't resample.  Based on M-Audio's track record in this area, I think we can reasonably assume that the S/PDIF input won't resample.

[nickgregory]

Nick, you're right. I'm not sure what Doug is referring to here, but so long as the unit locks to the external ADC, it'll be fine. Perhaps he's referring to S/PDIF units that have trouble playing nicely because they use some weird voltage, rather than adhering to the specification.

alright, makes more sense now...

[The Kilted Taper]

I think we all understand that the analog in on the JB3 isn't the best in the world, but if the analog in on this guy does the same job, I'll be happy with it. Analog will only be used in stealth anyway. Beggars can't be choosers. This is a small unit, should be easy to crotch, and I won't need any extra gear. Sounds perfect to me.

[MattD]

"Sadly this thing uses a digital level control that probably cannot be bypassed or improved." -Doug

Well, a digital control isn't a terrible thing. The question is if the gain is implemented digitally or in the analog domain. (i.e. Is it digital control of analog components?) Metric Halo used a digital level control for their MIO. While it's not an ideal solution, it doesn't compromise sound quality, except that you can't change levels smoothly (b/c digital controls, by definition, are not continuous).

[JasonSobel]

"Sadly this thing uses a digital level control that probably cannot be bypassed or improved." -Doug

Well, a digital control isn't a terrible thing. The question is if the gain is implemented digitally or in the analog domain. (i.e. Is it digital control of analog components?) Metric Halo used a digital level control for their MIO. While it's not an ideal solution, it doesn't compromise sound quality, except that you can't change levels smoothly (b/c digital controls, by definition, are not continuous).

ahh, a very good point there.  if it's just digital control of an analog gain section, that could be good. as far as whether or not changes in gain are noticeable, it depends on the increment of the switch.  what led me to believe that it's digital gain, is because Doug thought it couldn't be modded.  if it still an analog gain section, Doug would probably be able to swap out op-amps for better ones, and things of that nature.  on the other hand, it sounds like Doug is talking from speculation.  He doesn't have the unit in hand yet, so as of right now, we'll all still unsure of what this unit is capable of.  just sort of thinking out loud here...

[Todd R]

Yep, Matt, that is exactly what I was thinking.  Doesn't the 722 use digital gain control too?  I never thought a unit like this at this price would have a fantastic analog input and A/D section, but it may well be as good as an M1 or something.  I don't think we should jump to conclusions based solely on the fact that it uses digital gain controls.  I doubt it will be as good as a 722 or Metric Halo, but if those high end units use digital level control, I don't think we can immediately assume that the MicroTrack will suck because it uses that design.

Unless Doug all of a sudden knows that it uses digital scaling, not true analog gain, but I don't see how he has access to that info yet.  It seems to me that he has had no more info on this thing than the rest of us, so I doubt he has any detailed info on its implementation.

Anyway, great news that the cut sheet has been released.  I'm still hoping that this will be out soon, and will be an excellent recorder for my V3 and will also make for a decent stealth recordign solution.

[silentmark]

mr oade:

"Sadly this thing uses a digital level control that probably cannot be bypassed or improved. Fine for MP3 users or ENG but not so great for tapers or audiophiles. Think JB3/MD analog input sound quality. Still, the promise of this thing is as a non resampling 24 bit storage device for the Grace V3, Apogee MiniMe or MOD UA5. Until we see Microphone Preamps with A/D converters that include CF slots, something like this unit is our best hope for low cost storage.
Let us all hope they managed to include a good quality 24 bit S/PDIF input..Doug"

Ummm so what does this mean exactly ? I am confused on what a "digi level control" is ...

It means that when going analog in, it controls the levels in the digital domain, not in an analog pre-amp section.  this means that the analog inputs are not as desirable as they could be.  when sending it a digital S/PDIF signal, however, the levels will be controlled by equipment previous in the recording chain (i.e. my V3), so all it will do is record the ones and zeroes.  Assuming what Doug says is true, this devices will still be perfect for me and everyone else who just wanted to record a 24 bit signal coming from their A/D converter.  but it means that stealth tapers that wanted to use it as an all-in-one unit may be less than satisfied.

So I am relatively non technical...so I may be missing something here, but it was my understanding that S/PDIF was S/PDIF...a digi singal was fed and captured..is this not the case dependning on the quality of the design/components?  Engineer types, any opinions?

I think what Doug is saying is that some digital inputs resample the incoming data stream, therefore a "good quality" S/PDIF input would be one that doesn't resample.  Based on M-Audio's track record in this area, I think we can reasonably assume that the S/PDIF input won't resample.

Thanks Jason +T

[udovdh]

ahh, a very good point there.  if it's just digital control of an analog gain section, that could be good. as far as whether or not changes in gain are noticeable, it depends on the increment of the switch.  what led me to believe that it's digital gain, is because Doug thought it couldn't be modded.  if it still an analog gain section, Doug would probably be able to swap out op-amps for better ones, and things of that nature.  on the other hand, it sounds like Doug is talking from speculation.  He doesn't have the unit in hand yet, so as of right now, we'll all still unsure of what this unit is capable of.  just sort of thinking out loud here...

Please discern between analog gain and gain in the digital domain.
You can have digital controls for analog gain (pre-A/D) and digital controls for gain post-A/D.
We want analog gain with whatever controls.
Maybe M-Audio uses some 'codec' with integraded analog gain with digital control. (no separate op-amp)

I assume you mean the digital domain gain in your post.

[JasonSobel]

ahh, a very good point there.  if it's just digital control of an analog gain section, that could be good. as far as whether or not changes in gain are noticeable, it depends on the increment of the switch.  what led me to believe that it's digital gain, is because Doug thought it couldn't be modded.  if it still an analog gain section, Doug would probably be able to swap out op-amps for better ones, and things of that nature.  on the other hand, it sounds like Doug is talking from speculation.  He doesn't have the unit in hand yet, so as of right now, we'll all still unsure of what this unit is capable of.  just sort of thinking out loud here...

Please discern between analog gain and gain in the digital domain.
You can have digital controls for analog gain (pre-A/D) and digital controls for gain post-A/D.
We want analog gain with whatever controls.
Maybe M-Audio uses some 'codec' with integraded analog gain with digital control. (no separate op-amp)

I assume you mean the digital domain gain in your post.

In that post, I was talking about the differences between analog gain and gain in the digital domain.  when I said "digital gain" I meant gain done in the digital domain.  when I said "digital control of analog gain" I meant analog gain.

and interesting point about the 'codec' with integrated analog gain.  Would that be like a pre-made chip, with the analog gain section inside the chip?  if so, then I understand how and why there are no components that can be easily swapped out. 

Until we get more details about the product, we can't know for sure whether it's digitally controlled analog gain, or gain applied in the digital domain.

[The Kilted Taper]

tonyvt, go a few pages back. That's what has sparked the resurgence of discussion.