Topic: first time taper, question about mic and audio probs

[staticthinking]

Hi everyone, here goes my newbie post! After going to a lot of local shows (the coffeehouse kind) for about a year now, I finally caved and bought myself a rig. I went with the SP-CMC-2 > SP-SPSB-1 > (line in) Sony MZ-RH10 Hi-MD player... I know the NJB3 is highly regarded, but I was impatient and got outbid on eBay, so I went to the Sony Style store and thought I'd give the MD player a shot (and I did snag a JB3 on eBay, thanks to the notice about the Creative BIN that I saw here)...

So far, it seems that the right channel is noticeably quieter and deeper sounding. I taped a set last night, and I tried taping myself on the guitar at home. And watching the levels on the MD player, the right channel is always a bit lower... is this common with the mics I bought? Hopefully the JB3 will arrive soon so I can try the mics on that too.

I'm using Audacity on my Mac to edit. Overall, I'm happy with how the recording turned out. There's a real slight buzzing at the beginning of the recording, but it fades in less than 10 seconds... this happened when I tried taping something else before. Is this common with MD recordings, or the mics? And is there a way to fix the channels using Audacity, so that they are even? I thought of amplifying just the right channel.

Thanks, and sorry if I've been unclear with anything... still have a lot to learn with this stuff!

-Ryan

[dklein]

Ryan - welcome to the game.  The buzzing should definitely not be there no matter what the gear.  First off, try another home recording without the battery box.  I checked out your md and it does have mic-in, which will provide plug-in power for your mics (not as good as the battery box but your symptoms make me wonder about the box and this is an easy test).

Have both mics in the same place, then run a simple analysis on the recorded segment (built into most wave editors) and see how much the average RMS power is different (or just post a few seconds of mp3 here as an attachment and one of us will check it out).  If it's off by more than a couple of dB then you likely have bum mics.  If it's fine and the problem returns when the battery box is back in, then that's your problem.

You can rule out the md by feeding it a signal from a cd player/ipod/whatever and looking to see if your recording has the same low levels on the right channel.  I highly doubt it's the recorder though.

I don't use audacity but it will be easy to even out the levels.  I'm sure someone will jump in.  You probably want to maximise the louder channel (boost to ~0dB) and then boost the lower (right) channel to the same average RMS power.  Sample a few songs and run the analysis tool to get a feel for the relative differences in dB.  Only problem with analysing the whole file at once is often you have a screamer or loud clapper near one channel and you want to even out the average music levels, not the loud guy on one side of your mics.

Another thing - don't be afraid to contact the retailer (Sound Profs) and ask your questions.  IMO, some of these retailers get way too much support from places like this.  Sometimes we end up teaching them about their own gear and how it works/doesn't work with other equipment. Prime example - the whole 'bass rolloff depends on input impedance' thing.  SP publishes rolloff values that are only true for a few recorders, when used on a certain input.

[staticthinking]

Thanks for the response, dklein.

So I did what you suggested: mic > mic-in jack on the MD player. I recorded a few seconds of myself trying to strum the guitar (just learning how to play it), and upon playback, both channels are fine. Testing ear by ear/channel by channel, the left and right sound similar, and the right doesn't have the quiet/muddiness of the show I taped last night.

Then I went back to the previous setup (mic > battery box > line-in MD), and the problems were back: faint buzzing through the recording, softer right channel.

Now I've just tried the other setup you mentioned. I used the line-out on my portable discman and connected it to the line-in on the MD recorder. Watching the levels on the screen, they aren't equal - the right channel is off by some amount of dBs; like the left channel would be going above the -12 db mark, but the right channel wouldn't. I should note that I don't the right is stuck, since it did go over that mark when I recorded last night, but it still seemed to be lagging behind the left channel. And listening to this recording, I think I can still hear the differences, it's just not as obvious.

So this probably means the problem is the line-in on the MD player, right? I wonder if it's just my unit, or if it's true of the RH-10 in general...

Is there anything else I can do right now, or just wait until I can try the original set-up (mic > battery box) but to the line-in on the NJB3 (whenever that arrives)...

Thanks for the help!

ETA - Watching the levels as I tried using the mic-in, they both seem fine and even, with the right sometimes going higher than the left.

[dklein]

try  (mic > battery box >mic-in MD) and report back.  Maybe post a little mp3 sample as well (or email it to me at the addy in my profile)

[staticthinking]

E-mail has been sent. If anyone else wants to hear me strum the guitar poorly and check out the file for problems, let me know, I'll post it.

On a side note, the NJB3 from Creative has been shipped! The next show I'd like to tape is next Friday, so hopefully I'll be perfectly functional with everything by then... if it's the MD player that's the problem afterall, I'll just return it (slick as it is) and stick with the JB3 (hopefully that'll work perfectly too).

[Humbug]

I'd be surprised if you keep the minidisc after trying the Nomad...have fun, and practise setting it up (takes around 30 seconds max).

My CMC2s (or the battery box) are roughly 1dB out, sometimes I stand slightly to the left to try and even this out..normally I just boost the left channel an extra dB.

Humbug

[staticthinking]

I had an JB3 for about a week, around the time they were initially out too (2002, I think)... I had no idea about the world of taping, or of the local shows I've grown to love. I just really wanted my first mp3 player, and the iPods I tried (2G back then) wouldn't work with my PC at the time. Plus the JB3 was over $400, so I just couldn't keep it.

I'm just really glad I didn't buy the MD on eBay. Now I can just walk back into the Sony Style store and return it, saying there was a problem with the device.

[inside source]

I'm in exactly the same situation - not happy with my Sony MZ-RH10 Hi-MD. Mainly because of the software/transfer limitations.

I was deciding between Hi-MD and JB3. I chose Hi-MD because of the two things:
- smaller size
- mic-in

I know a lot of tapers here are able to sneak JB3 anyway, so maybe my fear of size was too much. But the lack of mic-in on JB3 (according to the official JB3 tour) looks inconvenient to me, because I'm not going to use battery box always, unless I totally miss something here (like the possibility to connect the mics to line-in, if it works ok).

[~ Dan]

I'm in exactly the same situation - not happy with my Sony MZ-RH10 Hi-MD. Mainly because of the software/transfer limitations.

I was deciding between Hi-MD and JB3. I chose Hi-MD because of the two things:
- smaller size
- mic-in

I know a lot of tapers here are able to sneak JB3 anyway, so maybe my fear of size was too much. But the lack of mic-in on JB3 (according to the official JB3 tour) looks inconvenient to me, because I'm not going to use battery box always, unless I totally miss something here (like the possibility to connect the mics to line-in, if it works ok).

The JB3 has mic-in too, you plug in same as line/optical in but just select mic-in when recording.  Although I can't say I recomend mic-in.

[inside source]

The JB3 has mic-in too, you plug in same as line/optical in but just select mic-in when recording.  Although I can't say I recomend mic-in.

Oh. Thanks.
What does the mic-in selection change to the signal that it become worse (through the same input jack)?

[~ Dan]

Line-in is A LOT cleaner, Mic-in can cause distortion VERY easily.  I don't know the specs, I'm not that informed, but if at all possible, I would recomend running line-in.

[dklein]

mic-in on the MDs provides plug-in power for electret microphones (most of the mini-mics tapers use - CSB, SP, AT, Giant Squid, whatever). 
mic-in on the JB3 does not provide plug in power and cuts high frequencies out, rendering it useless for music recording.

line-in on the MD can be cleaner than mic-in, as long as you are getting proper levels.  If you use line-in, you must use a battery box to provide power to the mics.  Another thing to keep in mind about using line-in is that it has a different impedance than your mic in and in most cases, it will negate the effect of a bass rolloff in a battery box.

When using mic-in on the MD, using a battery box is still recommended as they typically provide better (higher voltage) plug-in power to the mics, enabling them to handle higher sound levels. 

line-in is the only usable input on the JB3 and provides a small amount of gain (+12 dB).

[inside source]

dklein, thanks a lot for the summary.

[ljsurfer2002]

glad to see ryan taping san diego with me! this town can always use anotehr taper.. welcome to the fold ryan! (how was ray lamontagne?)

[panic_fan_dan]

I too bought this Hi-MD and seem to have no problems with it. I spoke to Doug Oade before the purchase and he told me to never use the mic in portion of the recorder because it has a shotty mic pre amp, always use the line-in portion. He also suggested a low cost mic pre amp which will provide 20db gain pictured. It can be purchase through Oade or you can make it yourself which I did and saved like $75 dollars.