Topic: M-Audio MicroTracker details **PART III**

[Nick's Picks]

well...not really assumptions, but observations based on feedback from others who have used microdrives in other CF based recorders.
I've been speaking to a few folks on the tapeless recording email list, and this is what they report.

bummer...because I was all excited to pick up a 4gb microdrive.  they are cheap enough.  I wonder if it will work out for 24/44.1.  but I doubt it.  I might buy one to check out and see.

i'm confident the MT will turn on.
but...will it stay on?

[The Kilted Taper]

I'm more than willing to test it out and be brave. It'll all depend on when we get them. I've got a few shows I can run open with and two sets of mics so I'll have a back up. M Doughty is next Wed., John Butler the end of Sept. Or, I'll just go to IOTA or something and run stealth. No biggy to me.

[mmedley.]

i'd beware of the microdrives in these.
- probably poor for 24bit
- probably overheat easily
- probably suck the shit out of the battery

For $99 I am willing to take that chance. I will have plenty of power via the 2 USB battery packs I ordered. M-audio specs the drives to perform in the unit (well within range for 24/96 data throughput) so that is good enough for me as well. I don't really see heat being an issue either...at least in my applications and intended use. They are used in many different mp3 players (ipod, Muvo, Creatives, etc) so they couldn't be THAT heat sensitive. I do intend to buy a 4+GB CF card as well, but with this unit arriving next week I must have media now! Maybe its just the Marantz products that don't like them.

[wbrisette]

For $99 I am willing to take that chance. I will have plenty of power via the 2 USB battery packs I ordered. M-audio specs the drives to perform in the unit (well within range for 24/96 data throughput) so that is good enough for me as well.

What I'm waiting for is all the folks who start using 24/96, to then decide it isn't worth the extra bandwidth and then drop back down to 24/48 or 24/44.1 to record. Then again, maybe I'm in the minority, but I have yet to find amplified music that warrants 24/96 and gains something by using the higher sampling rate. Classical or acoustic is another story, but I don't see much of that going on around here (except for our crazy classical man...mfrench).

Wayne

[sygdwm]

What I'm waiting for is all the folks who start using 24/96, to then decide it isn't worth the extra bandwidth and then drop back down to 24/48 or 24/44.1 to record. Then again, maybe I'm in the minority, but I have yet to find amplified music that warrants 24/96 and gains something by using the higher sampling rate.

Wayne

youre not the only one, but still in the minority. i think.

[mmedley.]

For $99 I am willing to take that chance. I will have plenty of power via the 2 USB battery packs I ordered. M-audio specs the drives to perform in the unit (well within range for 24/96 data throughput) so that is good enough for me as well.

What I'm waiting for is all the folks who start using 24/96, to then decide it isn't worth the extra bandwidth and then drop back down to 24/48 or 24/44.1 to record. Then again, maybe I'm in the minority, but I have yet to find amplified music that warrants 24/96 and gains something by using the higher sampling rate. Classical or acoustic is another story, but I don't see much of that going on around here (except for our crazy classical man...mfrench).

Wayne

heh. I hear ya. I only run 24/48 now since I am limited by the vxpocket. 24/96 will be all I use. Overkill in certain situations? Sure!, but isn't the Deva? 

[wbrisette]

heh. I hear ya. I only run 24/48 now since I am limited by the vxpocket. 24/96 will be all I use. Overkill in certain situations? Sure!, but isn't the Deva? 

The Deva has opened some doors my friend... Just got an email today from Rodney Crowell's folks, they were going to do some 24 track recording for a possible live record next year until the bean counters got wind of the cost. Instead, they gave me a shout since I can do 8 tracks with the Deva... Overkill? In a bar, yes. But it has opened doors too.

Wayne

[OFOTD]

I am really confused here about the Microdrive debate.  I am not on the tapeless recording email list so let me try and take these one by one:

- probably poor for 24bit]- probably poor for 24bit

Is this assumption because of bandwidth issues?  That it won't read or write fast enough?  Or is there another concern?

- probably overheat easily]- probably overheat easily

The microdrive will overheat or the unit will overheat?

- probably suck the shit out of the battery

This assumption seems like there are a ton a variables to consider.  Are you using the phantom power?  Are you keeping the back light on all the time or for prolonged periods?  Are you using an external battery pack?

I do know for a fact that photographers do not prefer microdrives because of the speed of the camera's  initial access to the drive.  They have to wait a 1/1000 (guesstimate)  of a second to spin up and that doesn't translate well for digital imagery?  But in our use this would not be a factor as we are not dealing with fractions of seconds in the startup time or read time.

[rdvdijk]

I am really confused here about the Microdrive debate.  I am not on the tapeless recording email list so let me try and take these one by one:

- probably poor for 24bit]- probably poor for 24bit

Is this assumption because of bandwidth issues?  That it won't read or write fast enough?  Or is there another concern?

Here's the Core Sound link again: http://www.core-sound.com/CF-and-SD-mass-storage-comparison.html

The table can give you an idea of memory speeds on PDAs, but it is very clear that microdrives can just reach 200kb/s, which is not fast enough for 24/96 (576kb/s). Maybe the interface on the MicroTrack is better than on a regular PDA, but I doubt they will reach much higher speeds. Most of the newer SanDisk CF cards can reach that speed, though.

Roel

[OFOTD]

I am really confused here about the Microdrive debate.  I am not on the tapeless recording email list so let me try and take these one by one:

- probably poor for 24bit]- probably poor for 24bit

Is this assumption because of bandwidth issues?  That it won't read or write fast enough?  Or is there another concern?

Here's the Core Sound link again: http://www.core-sound.com/CF-and-SD-mass-storage-comparison.html

The table can give you an idea of memory speeds on PDAs, but it is very clear that microdrives can just reach 200kb/s, which is not fast enough for 24/96 (576kb/s). Maybe the interface on the MicroTrack is better than on a regular PDA, but I doubt they will reach much higher speeds. Most of the newer SanDisk CF cards can reach that speed, though.

Roel

Okay I looked at Len's    site.  According to their numbers recording at 24/96 writes 576 KB to disk every second. 

Now looking at this chart at: http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=6007-7699
I picked a random Microdrive towards the bottom of the list (the slower cards are listed closer to the bottom) , the Hitachi Microdrive 4GB, formatted FAT32 with 32K cluster size8 (Model: HMS360404D5CF00)   writes at 2.882MB/sec.   

So if the card can write about 6x the speed of what is needed to record at 24/96 then i'm having a hard time understanding where we have a problem with the Microtracker? 

Is this debate not a debate of facts but of personal preference of CF over Microdrives?  We do know that Microdrives have moving parts and CF does not.  So theoretically the chance of something going wrong is higher one would think.  But what are the odds of something going wrong?  I have a few flash USB keys and have had two of them just quit.  So flash memory (CF) can fail as well. 

Help me here i'm trying to understand? 

[John Kelly]

The facts so far (other than theoretical read/write speeds, which usually are never achieved outside of a lab) seem to suggest that the Microdrives have had difficulty in current devices keeping up with 24/96.  *Can* it be done?  Maybe.  Can it be done reliably?  So far no. 

[OFOTD]

The facts so far (other than theoretical read/write speeds, which usually are never achieved outside of a lab) seem to suggest that the Microdrives have had difficulty in current devices keeping up with 24/96.  *Can* it be done?  Maybe.  Can it be done reliably?  So far no. 

Are we talking about any devices OTHER than Len's p.o.s. stuff? 

[mmedley.]

I am really confused here about the Microdrive debate.  I am not on the tapeless recording email list so let me try and take these one by one:

- probably poor for 24bit]- probably poor for 24bit

Is this assumption because of bandwidth issues?  That it won't read or write fast enough?  Or is there another concern?

Here's the Core Sound link again: http://www.core-sound.com/CF-and-SD-mass-storage-comparison.html

The table can give you an idea of memory speeds on PDAs, but it is very clear that microdrives can just reach 200kb/s, which is not fast enough for 24/96 (576kb/s). Maybe the interface on the MicroTrack is better than on a regular PDA, but I doubt they will reach much higher speeds. Most of the newer SanDisk CF cards can reach that speed, though.

Roel

Okay I looked at Len's    site.  According to their numbers recording at 24/96 writes 576 KB to disk every second. 

Now looking at this chart at: http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=6007-7699
I picked a random Microdrive towards the bottom of the list (the slower cards are listed closer to the bottom) , the Hitachi Microdrive 4GB, formatted FAT32 with 32K cluster size8 (Model: HMS360404D5CF00)   writes at 2.882MB/sec.   

So if the card can write about 6x the speed of what is needed to record at 24/96 then i'm having a hard time understanding where we have a problem with the Microtracker? 

Is this debate not a debate of facts but of personal preference of CF over Microdrives?  We do know that Microdrives have moving parts and CF does not.  So theoretically the chance of something going wrong is higher one would think.  But what are the odds of something going wrong?  I have a few flash USB keys and have had two of them just quit.  So flash memory (CF) can fail as well. 

Help me here i'm trying to understand? 

I'm with ya. I just checked Hitachi's site and saw the the 6GB microdrive can write plenty fast enough.

http://www.hitachigst.com/hdd/support/micro/3k6.htm

[Nick's Picks]

if a toshiba PCMCIA hdd, which I have to think has more fault tollerance than these microdrives, whch are 1/4 the size...dont work for shit in a giant, airy FR2.. what makes you think they'll kick ass in the MT?
thats my logic.

i'd love to see otherwise.  here's hoping.

[OFOTD]

if a toshiba PCMCIA hdd, which I have to think has more fault tollerance than these microdrives, whch are 1/4 the size...dont work for shit in a giant, airy FR2.. what makes you think they'll kick ass in the MT?
thats my logic.

i'd love to see otherwise.  here's hoping.

Well I think i'm just looking for facts about the microdives and not just guesses like some folks have been reporting.  Assumptions are fun and easy to do but I just felt like the tone turned negative to microdrives.  While I suspect alot of things may or may not happen I cannot discount the fact that we have not heard from anyone who has used one successfully or unsuccessfully.  The cost difference is quite signifigant between microdrives and CF cards and if I can use a microdrive with success I would rather put that savings difference into other things.   

From my personal experience I have had more products with CF fail on me and not had any of the microdrive products fail.  Now my primary microdrive devices are Ipods (1x2g, 1x3g, 1x4g (which has 2 drives) and a mini) and they all have never given me a problem.  My luck with CF and flash memory has been really disappointing.   

Also I think that sometimes we as a group tend to work from the top (pricewise)  down gear-wise when I would suspect a huge number of tapers work from the bottom up on the price scale.

+T's around for good discussion on this.  I'm waiting with much hope that this new device pans out.