Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: aplying gain vs. normalizing  (Read 6398 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline admkrk

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1629
  • I'm an idiot
aplying gain vs. normalizing
« on: June 09, 2006, 09:12:20 PM »
basicly what exactly is the difference?

i'm working on a show that is kind of quiet, expecialy in the low end. which is weird because it's usualy the other way around?? anyway, it sounds kinda distant, if that makes sence. thinking of boosting the gain around 1.5 db, but would i be better off using normlization? just looking for some opinions before i start playing around w/ it.

btw, i'm using wavelab5 and i could post a sample later when i get the time if that would help.

thanks,

 kirk
"the faster you go ahead, the behinder you get"

"If you can drink ram's piss, fuck, you can drink anything"

RebelRebel

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: aplying gain vs. normalizing
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2006, 10:31:35 PM »


with traditional normalization, audio progs scan a file for the loudest peak and amplifies so that the peak attains the loudest level.
 but if you do it while mastering, the songs will still vary in level because our ears respond to a songs "average" level. Metanormalize(wavelab tool) normalizes using RMS(average levels)
use the Meta Normalize tool for the best results(use instead of change gain)


WAVELAB:

drag all the files into the main window.
select batch process from the tools menu
click on the input tab, then add file button in the batch processing window, then select ADD ALL.
click on the edit batch plug ins button, when the processor list appears open the plug ins folder, and double click the Meta Normalizer plugin.

after clicking on the meta normalizing plugin, it appears in the left column in the processor list. double click to show the meta normalizer parameters , click on "equalize loudness"(RMS) "check global"(check maximize if possible if you want to use every bit of headroom)then check ok.

click on the processor list OK button
click on the batch process output tab. Click on the folder button to navigate to the desired folder, or create a new one. click on RUN and the files will be metanormalized and deposited where you want...

Offline Church-Audio

  • Trade Count: (44)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 7573
  • Gender: Male
Re: aplying gain vs. normalizing
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2006, 10:43:57 PM »
Yep that about sums it up :)





with traditional normalization, audio progs scan a file for the loudest peak and amplifies so that the peak attains the loudest level.
 but if you do it while mastering, the songs will still vary in level because our ears respond to a songs "average" level. Metanormalize(wavelab tool) normalizes using RMS(average levels)
use the Meta Normalize tool for the best results(use instead of change gain)


WAVELAB:

drag all the files into the main window.
select batch process from the tools menu
click on the input tab, then add file button in the batch processing window, then select ADD ALL.
click on the edit batch plug ins button, when the processor list appears open the plug ins folder, and double click the Meta Normalizer plugin.

after clicking on the meta normalizing plugin, it appears in the left column in the processor list. double click to show the meta normalizer parameters , click on "equalize loudness"(RMS) "check global"(check maximize if possible if you want to use every bit of headroom)then check ok.

click on the processor list OK button
click on the batch process output tab. Click on the folder button to navigate to the desired folder, or create a new one. click on RUN and the files will be metanormalized and deposited where you want...
for warranty returns email me at
EMAIL Sales@church-audio.com

Offline poorlyconditioned

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1958
  • I'm a tapir!
Re: aplying gain vs. normalizing
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2006, 11:23:23 PM »


with traditional normalization, audio progs scan a file for the loudest peak and amplifies so that the peak attains the loudest level.
 but if you do it while mastering, the songs will still vary in level because our ears respond to a songs "average" level. Metanormalize(wavelab tool) normalizes using RMS(average levels)
use the Meta Normalize tool for the best results(use instead of change gain)


WAVELAB:

drag all the files into the main window.
select batch process from the tools menu
click on the input tab, then add file button in the batch processing window, then select ADD ALL.
click on the edit batch plug ins button, when the processor list appears open the plug ins folder, and double click the Meta Normalizer plugin.

after clicking on the meta normalizing plugin, it appears in the left column in the processor list. double click to show the meta normalizer parameters , click on "equalize loudness"(RMS) "check global"(check maximize if possible if you want to use every bit of headroom)then check ok.

click on the processor list OK button
click on the batch process output tab. Click on the folder button to navigate to the desired folder, or create a new one. click on RUN and the files will be metanormalized and deposited where you want...

Dear Teddy,

Thanks for the info.

Hey, can you (or someone else) help me with Wavelab.  I noticed that it does not recognize my CDrom.  It is an external (USB) drive on a laptop.  I'm running Wavelab 4.0 on Windows XP.  I tried importing files, writing, or whatever.  It found my CD, but when I try to do anything, it doesn't work (just gives me a blank or greyed out dialog).   I couldn't find anything obvious in the Setup.  Maybe it just doesn't work.

  Richard
Mics: Sennheiser MKE2002 (dummy head), Studio Projects C4, AT825 (unmodded), AT822 franken mic (x2), AT853(hc,c,sc,o), Senn. MKE2, Senn MKE40, Shure MX183/5, CA Cards, homebrew Panasonic and Transsound capsules.
Pre/ADC: Presonus Firepod & Firebox, DMIC20(x2), UA5(poorly-modded, AD8620+AD8512opamps), VX440
Recorders: Edirol R4, R09, IBM X24 laptop, NJB3(x2), HiMD(x2), MD(1).
** This individual has moved to user "illconditioned" **

RebelRebel

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: aplying gain vs. normalizing
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2006, 05:05:24 AM »
If a drive is not listed in the burning dialogue of Wavelab, run the latest recorder update.
Under that link you can find a downloadable list of the supported CD/DVD writers and the latest recorder update:
ftp://ftp.steinberg.net/Download/Hardware/CD_DVD_Recorder_Updates/Pc/

If the the burn process doesn't start, burning speeds are not displayed correctly or you can´t import a title from an Audio CD then try another ASPI driver:
1) Make a backup of your system
2) Get wnaspi32.dll from this place: ftp://ftp6.nero.com/wnaspi32.dll and copy it into the WaveLab folder.
3) Uninstall ASAPI (Control Panel / Remove programs). Then Reboot.

If a drive is not supported by the current CDR registry, please run [WaveLab]/Tools/cdr/drvreg.exe. Then right click on the desired drive and select "Assign driver". A dialog appears. Best is then to select the most similar drive from the same manufacturer.

If your CD-writer is supported official and you have despite the latest driverupdates still problems:

At first you should examine whether the DMA (Direct Memory Access) Mode is activated on your
CD-writer (and all the other drives). You can find it out with the hardware device manager
(Start -> Settings -> Systemcontrol -> System -> (-> Hardware (only Win 2000/XP)) -> hardware device manager. With Windows 95/98/ME you can find this setting directly at the properties of the drive, with Windows 2000 and XP you will find this settings under the primary und secundary IDE-Controller.

Newer versions of the Chipset (resp. the newest Chipsetdriver) have often no possibility, to activate the DMA Mode , because the IDE-channels already use the DMA Mode. Maybe you have to install or actualize the chipset resp. Busmaster driver, if there are problems with the DMA Mode and the usage of it. Some producers of CD-writers advice not to use the DMA Mode, but this is more likely the exception, because drives without DMA burden the CPU with datatransfer. If it is for some reason not possible to activate the DMA Mode or after a reboot it is again deactivated, you should try to solve that problem with the producer of the affected Hardware.

If your CD-writer isn´t recognized further on  look at the producers homepage of your drive, whether there is a new firmware available, and to update your drive if there is one.



CD Extra: Not all drives work correctly with WaveLab for CD Extra. Plextor drives are recommended.


After an update or an uninstallation of WaveLab on Windows 2000 or Windows XP, it is possible that your CD/DVD drives have dissapeared from your Windows “workstation” .
After an uninstallation the insertion in the registry will not be deleted sometimes. WaveLab needs a filter driver to work correctly on the operating system. If the driver is not availble on the harddisk, but if it is still listed in the registry, Windows will delete the drives from the “workstation”.

[start] -> [execute], type "regedit" and open the registry-editor: HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Class\{4D36E965-E325-11CE-BFC1-08002BE10318}
Doubleclick on "Upperfilters"
A new Window will appear in which will be shown different values. If ASAPI is still installed, one of the values will show "ASAPI" .
If after an uninstallation ASAPI and the Upperfilter-value are still listed, please delete the Upperfilter-values manual.


with traditional normalization, audio progs scan a file for the loudest peak and amplifies so that the peak attains the loudest level.
 but if you do it while mastering, the songs will still vary in level because our ears respond to a songs "average" level. Metanormalize(wavelab tool) normalizes using RMS(average levels)
use the Meta Normalize tool for the best results(use instead of change gain)


WAVELAB:

drag all the files into the main window.
select batch process from the tools menu
click on the input tab, then add file button in the batch processing window, then select ADD ALL.
click on the edit batch plug ins button, when the processor list appears open the plug ins folder, and double click the Meta Normalizer plugin.

after clicking on the meta normalizing plugin, it appears in the left column in the processor list. double click to show the meta normalizer parameters , click on "equalize loudness"(RMS) "check global"(check maximize if possible if you want to use every bit of headroom)then check ok.

click on the processor list OK button
click on the batch process output tab. Click on the folder button to navigate to the desired folder, or create a new one. click on RUN and the files will be metanormalized and deposited where you want...

Dear Teddy,

Thanks for the info.

Hey, can you (or someone else) help me with Wavelab.  I noticed that it does not recognize my CDrom.  It is an external (USB) drive on a laptop.  I'm running Wavelab 4.0 on Windows XP.  I tried importing files, writing, or whatever.  It found my CD, but when I try to do anything, it doesn't work (just gives me a blank or greyed out dialog).   I couldn't find anything obvious in the Setup.  Maybe it just doesn't work.

  Richard


Offline admkrk

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1629
  • I'm an idiot
Re: aplying gain vs. normalizing
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2006, 11:05:13 AM »
thanks bud. that answers part of my question anyway.  i think you assumed i had split tracks already? it's just one big file.  i still don't understand the difference between normlizing(either kind) and adding gain. maybe i'm just being thick headed?
"the faster you go ahead, the behinder you get"

"If you can drink ram's piss, fuck, you can drink anything"

RebelRebel

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: aplying gain vs. normalizing
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2006, 11:27:11 AM »
 normalization is an overall increase in the volume until the highest peak reaches "digital zero" (0 dbFS) or the highest volume you can possibly reach in a digital environment without distorting. adding gain, is well..adding gain, increasing the volume to a value that you determine...it doesnt work with averages , but rather on a set number. Adding gain is much better, IMHO. The dynamic levels are preserved, and it is really simple to do...with normalization, you can possibly screw up the dynamics.

.
thanks bud. that answers part of my question anyway.  i think you assumed i had split tracks already? it's just one big file.  i still don't understand the difference between normlizing(either kind) and adding gain. maybe i'm just being thick headed?
« Last Edit: June 12, 2006, 03:38:36 PM by Teddy »

Offline admkrk

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1629
  • I'm an idiot
Re: aplying gain vs. normalizing
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2006, 12:55:28 PM »
maybe it's the part about averages that has me confused?

if i run an anallisis and it shows my peak as being -1.972db and i aplyed say 1.9db of gain, wouldn't that be the same? also is it posible to do the rms in only one channel? (guess i had a couple too many pre show that night).
"the faster you go ahead, the behinder you get"

"If you can drink ram's piss, fuck, you can drink anything"

Offline scb

  • Eli Manning should die of gonorrhea and rot in hell. Would you like a cookie, son?
  • Trade Count: (10)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 8600
  • Gender: Male
Re: aplying gain vs. normalizing
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2006, 01:52:14 PM »
 
The RMS normalization above is much better, IMHO. The dynamic levels are preserved, and it is really simple to do...with adding gain, you can possibly screw up the dynamics.

RMS normalization can screw up the dynamics.  adding gain(straight peak normalization) won't, since everything is raised by the same amount. but doesn't RMS normalization use limiting/compression?  that can screw up dynamic range

Offline poorlyconditioned

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1958
  • I'm a tapir!
Re: aplying gain vs. normalizing
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2006, 02:08:15 PM »
If a drive is not listed in the burning dialogue of Wavelab, run the latest recorder update.

+T. Thanks for the detailed help!!!

  Richard
Mics: Sennheiser MKE2002 (dummy head), Studio Projects C4, AT825 (unmodded), AT822 franken mic (x2), AT853(hc,c,sc,o), Senn. MKE2, Senn MKE40, Shure MX183/5, CA Cards, homebrew Panasonic and Transsound capsules.
Pre/ADC: Presonus Firepod & Firebox, DMIC20(x2), UA5(poorly-modded, AD8620+AD8512opamps), VX440
Recorders: Edirol R4, R09, IBM X24 laptop, NJB3(x2), HiMD(x2), MD(1).
** This individual has moved to user "illconditioned" **

RebelRebel

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: aplying gain vs. normalizing
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2006, 02:21:20 PM »
No, RMS normalization does not use compression or limiting. RMS normalization and compression are similar in that they both even out the overall volume, but compression is not used in the process of RMS normalization..

The RMS normalization above is much better, IMHO. The dynamic levels are preserved, and it is really simple to do...with adding gain, you can possibly screw up the dynamics.

RMS normalization can screw up the dynamics.  adding gain(straight peak normalization) won't, since everything is raised by the same amount. but doesn't RMS normalization use limiting/compression?  that can screw up dynamic range

RebelRebel

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: aplying gain vs. normalizing
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2006, 02:22:35 PM »
Been a while since ive used wavelab, but yes, you can use one channel.....simply select the one channel and analyze..I *think* that anything before 5.01b had an issue with processing only one channel..
maybe it's the part about averages that has me confused?

if i run an anallisis and it shows my peak as being -1.972db and i aplyed say 1.9db of gain, wouldn't that be the same? also is it posible to do the rms in only one channel? (guess i had a couple too many pre show that night).

Offline scb

  • Eli Manning should die of gonorrhea and rot in hell. Would you like a cookie, son?
  • Trade Count: (10)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 8600
  • Gender: Male
Re: aplying gain vs. normalizing
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2006, 02:35:33 PM »
No, RMS normalization does not use compression or limiting. RMS normalization and compression are similar in that they both even out the overall volume, but compression is not used in the process of RMS normalization..

but RMS raises the levels based on the RMS level, so everything already above the RMS level is either clipped or compressed, depending on the approach the software doing the RMS normalization takes

Offline admkrk

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1629
  • I'm an idiot
Re: aplying gain vs. normalizing
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2006, 10:16:04 PM »
well thanks for ya'lls help, i think i might be even more comfused now  ???

i went the rms route and all seems fine. for what ever reason i couldn't change the rt channel independently, only the left. at least the peaks were w/ in 1db so i can live w/ it.
"the faster you go ahead, the behinder you get"

"If you can drink ram's piss, fuck, you can drink anything"

RebelRebel

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: aplying gain vs. normalizing
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2006, 05:02:36 AM »
Yes, I think this is a bug with 5...you need 5.01b...
well thanks for ya'lls help, i think i might be even more comfused now  ???

i went the rms route and all seems fine. for what ever reason i couldn't change the rt channel independently, only the left. at least the peaks were w/ in 1db so i can live w/ it.

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.229 seconds with 42 queries.
© 2002-2019 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF