Topic: New to taping. Help please

[phriq]

Hey everyone. I am new to taping but want to start getting into it as a hobby. i have been a trader at tapetrader.com for a while and now want to start recording my own shows. I have a mini binaural stereo dual point stealth mics i got a www.soundprofessionals.com allong with a 9v mini battery module with bass roll off options. i recorded my first show last night (goo goo dolls and augustana) using that setup and a sony minidisc recorder. The sound was ok but the bass was very heavy. i used 160hz bass rolloff. Is there any tips anyone could give me or if you could add me to msn my address is phriq86@hotmail.com. i would love to talk to someone to get some help. also. i want to get a hard drive recorder. what are my options. thanks
 

[stevetoney]

Hey everyone. I am new to taping but want to start getting into it as a hobby. i have been a trader at tapetrader.com for a while and now want to start recording my own shows. I have a mini binaural stereo dual point stealth mics i got a www.soundprofessionals.com allong with a 9v mini battery module with bass roll off options. i recorded my first show last night (goo goo dolls and augustana) using that setup and a sony minidisc recorder. The sound was ok but the bass was very heavy. i used 160hz bass rolloff. Is there any tips anyone could give me or if you could add me to msn my address is phriq86@hotmail.com. i would love to talk to someone to get some help. also. i want to get a hard drive recorder. what are my options. thanks
 

I started in exactly the same place as you about 8 years ago and tried to see what kind of recordings I could get through mini-disc.  Unfortunatly, you just will never get a good recording with a standard MD player.  Lows are the problem and the reason is that ATRAC compression (which is the compression scheme used in standard MD) causes MD to be unacceptable for live music recording.  The lows muddy up unacceptably. 

Mini-disc is a cool format though and about three years ago, the Hi-MD format came on the scene.  Hi-md players improve significantly on the ATRAC compression scheme by offering an ucompressed mode of recording.  In uncompressed mode, tapers get about 92 minutes on a Hi-MD disc.  Many tapers (me included) like the sound of Hi-SP mode.  Hi-SP does indeed use a compression scheme, but with minimal degradation of sound quality.  Hi-SP provides 7 1/2 hours of recording on a Hi-MD disc.

However, you mention that you are interested in getting into hard drive recording, which makes the above Hi-MD discussion moot.  Two of the most popular low cost options are the Nomad Jukebox 3 and the iRiver.  These recorder options allow the user to record directly to hard drive in WAV (uncompressed) format.  Used JB3's come available all the time in the Yard Sale forum here on taperssection.com.  You have to check in often though because they are still quite popular (can't buy them new anymore) and they sell quickly.

Other more costly options exist and you should review the 'Where to Begin' forum for details.  Check out the following message and about 3/4 of the way down is a listing of some of the different recorder options and their approximate used and new prices.

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,35004.0.html

Regarding your mic and battery box, I recommend that you do the same thing that I did to determine the optimal bass roll-off setting.  Wait until your wife is gone shopping, CRANK your stereo and make sure to pick a sample of music that has strong bass and mega kick drum.  Then run the box through the various settings while recording a sound sample at each setting. Make sure the sound sample is long enough for you to evaluate the quality of the sound.  To make sure I knew which setting I was using, I just announced the setting into my recording as I changed it.   

After doing this, it wasn't difficult for me to figure out that 107hz was the best position for the battery box while running my AT-853s.  I've kept my battery box at that position for every show I've ever run though it since and never needed to change.

Hope this helps.

Steve

[poorlyconditioned]

Hey everyone. I am new to taping but want to start getting into it as a hobby. i have been a trader at tapetrader.com for a while and now want to start recording my own shows. I have a mini binaural stereo dual point stealth mics i got a www.soundprofessionals.com allong with a 9v mini battery module with bass roll off options. i recorded my first show last night (goo goo dolls and augustana) using that setup and a sony minidisc recorder. The sound was ok but the bass was very heavy. i used 160hz bass rolloff. Is there any tips anyone could give me or if you could add me to msn my address is phriq86@hotmail.com. i would love to talk to someone to get some help. also. i want to get a hard drive recorder. what are my options. thanks
 

I started in exactly the same place as you about 8 years ago and tried to see what kind of recordings I could get through mini-disc.  Unfortunatly, you just will never get a good recording with a standard MD player.  Lows are the problem and the reason is that ATRAC compression (which is the compression scheme used in standard MD) causes MD to be unacceptable for live music recording.  The lows muddy up unacceptably. 

Mini-disc is a cool format though and about three years ago, the Hi-MD format came on the scene.  Hi-md players improve significantly on the ATRAC compression scheme by offering an ucompressed mode of recording.  In uncompressed mode, tapers get about 92 minutes on a Hi-MD disc.  Many tapers (me included) like the sound of Hi-SP mode.  Hi-SP does indeed use a compression scheme, but with minimal degradation of sound quality.  Hi-SP provides 7 1/2 hours of recording on a Hi-MD disc.

However, you mention that you are interested in getting into hard drive recording, which makes the above Hi-MD discussion moot.  Two of the most popular low cost options are the Nomad Jukebox 3 and the iRiver.  These recorder options allow the user to record directly to hard drive in WAV (uncompressed) format.  Used JB3's come available all the time in the Yard Sale forum here on taperssection.com.  You have to check in often though because they are still quite popular (can't buy them new anymore) and they sell quickly.

Other more costly options exist and you should review the 'Where to Begin' forum for details.  Check out the following message and about 3/4 of the way down is a listing of some of the different recorder options and their approximate used and new prices.

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,35004.0.html

Regarding your mic and battery box, I recommend that you do the same thing that I did to determine the optimal bass roll-off setting.  Wait until your wife is gone shopping, CRANK your stereo and make sure to pick a sample of music that has strong bass and mega kick drum.  Then run the box through the various settings while recording a sound sample at each setting. Make sure the sound sample is long enough for you to evaluate the quality of the sound.  To make sure I knew which setting I was using, I just announced the setting into my recording as I changed it.   

After doing this, it wasn't difficult for me to figure out that 107hz was the best position for the battery box while running my AT-853s.  I've kept my battery box at that position for every show I've ever run though it since and never needed to change.

Hope this helps.

Steve

Umm.  I think Minidisc is just fine.  His problem is the mics are overloading.  I've made tons of great MD recordings with AT853 + 3-wire-batt box running line-in.

Also, MD analog in is way better than NJB3 or iRiver.  Those should be run digi in only.

  Richard

[M]

Were you running line in or mic in?  The bass filter on the sp batt box is designed to work with the mic in on sony recorders only and the roll off will be signifigantly reduced if you run line in. 

fwiw I don't think the roll off will work properly with a iriver or jb3 either.

[Roving Sign]

Umm.  I think Minidisc is just fine.  His problem is the mics are overloading.  I've made tons of great MD recordings with AT853 + 3-wire-batt box running line-in.

Also, MD analog in is way better than NJB3 or iRiver.  Those should be run digi in only.

  Richard

Mmm...thats a bit of a generalization...

The MIC input setting on the JB3 is no good for sure...but the LINE setting is just dandy...I prefer it to the line in on my old DAT any day...I often use the JB3 internal when I don't have enough space for my regular rig...

I use the default "0db" gain setting and drive the JB3 with my mixer (via RCA outs) - I'm always suprised how hot a signal it can take...maybe not the best for battery box recording - as I dont like to add gain with the JB3...

But if you have upstream gain available...It works great.

[stevetoney]

Umm.  I think Minidisc is just fine.  His problem is the mics are overloading.  I've made tons of great MD recordings with AT853 + 3-wire-batt box running line-in.

Also, MD analog in is way better than NJB3 or iRiver.  Those should be run digi in only.

If you say so.  To my ears, for any of the recordings that I made with minidisc, if I played them through my stereo at volume, the bass tones sounded bad (muffled, garbled and underwanter sounding) solely because of ATRAC compression.  If ATRAC compression wasn't lousy, then people would still be using minidisc because of cost.  Fact is, nobody uses it because of ATRAC.

But I guess everyone needs to be their own judge based on the sound they want to get.

Having said that, I agree with you that overloading mics is a problem for new tapers to be aware of.  Any noob running their first show needs to understand about overloading mics and what that sounds like.  However, if you don't know what it sounds like, you might mistake the lousy ATRAC bass sounds for overloading mics or vice versa.

[wbrisette]

To my ears, for any of the recordings that I made with minidisc, if I played them through my stereo at volume, the bass tones sounded bad (muffled, garbled and underwanter sounding) solely because of ATRAC compression.  If ATRAC compression wasn't lousy, then people would still be using minidisc because of cost.  Fact is, nobody uses it because of ATRAC.

I disagree with you. It's not the ATRAC that killed the MiniDisc, it was the limitations put on the MD by the music industry that killed it. ATRAC was hampered because the first couple of versions were bad. Too compressed, killed too many frequencies to be a good format for recording. As ATRAC matured, it sounded better, but Sony had a hard sell by that point and the music industry still hampered wider acceptance of the format.

If I look at who is recording on MiniDisc, it's usually somebody that has a limited amount of money and a combination of microphones and battery-boxes usually have more to do with the sound of the recordings than ATRAC does. In fact, I would be willing to bet that if I fed my minidisc (I still own one) a feed from my Deva, and played that back later you wouldn't be able to tell it from the version that went to the hard drive. Mostly because suddenly there are thousands of dollars worth of expensive mics and pre-amps on the front end of things, and not some hundred dollar mics and a twenty-five dollar battery box. The truth is, but the time people tape for any length of time, they start figuring out what it is they need to upgrade, Mics, preamps, A/D converters, and recorder are all things they start looking at.  Because of the limited input options on the MiniDisc, that's usually one of the first things that gets upgraded.

Anyhow, I think it has more to with other factors than ATRAC. Although I will say that tapers and collectors don't like ATRAC, so that's another factor in changing out the MD first rather than later.

Wayne

[stevetoney]

To my ears, for any of the recordings that I made with minidisc, if I played them through my stereo at volume, the bass tones sounded bad (muffled, garbled and underwanter sounding) solely because of ATRAC compression.  If ATRAC compression wasn't lousy, then people would still be using minidisc because of cost.  Fact is, nobody uses it because of ATRAC.

I disagree with you. It's not the ATRAC that killed the MiniDisc, it was the limitations put on the MD by the music industry that killed it. ATRAC was hampered because the first couple of versions were bad. Too compressed, killed too many frequencies to be a good format for recording. As ATRAC matured, it sounded better, but Sony had a hard sell by that point and the music industry still hampered wider acceptance of the format.

If I look at who is recording on MiniDisc, it's usually somebody that has a limited amount of money and a combination of microphones and battery-boxes usually have more to do with the sound of the recordings than ATRAC does. In fact, I would be willing to bet that if I fed my minidisc (I still own one) a feed from my Deva, and played that back later you wouldn't be able to tell it from the version that went to the hard drive. Mostly because suddenly there are thousands of dollars worth of expensive mics and pre-amps on the front end of things, and not some hundred dollar mics and a twenty-five dollar battery box. The truth is, but the time people tape for any length of time, they start figuring out what it is they need to upgrade, Mics, preamps, A/D converters, and recorder are all things they start looking at.  Because of the limited input options on the MiniDisc, that's usually one of the first things that gets upgraded.

Anyhow, I think it has more to with other factors than ATRAC. Although I will say that tapers and collectors don't like ATRAC, so that's another factor in changing out the MD first rather than later.

Wayne

I'm sure all you say is true.  I'm no expert on this media form...I just reached my own conclusions based on my own experiences, so I must have had an early version of the ATRAC compression with the MD players that I had because the recordings that I made didn't sound good and it was definitely because of the compression and not the rig. 

I don't have any problem believing that what you are saying is true though because I have a Hi-MD player and I really like using Hi-SP mode alot.  This is a compressed mode of recording that is one notch down from non-compressed recording stream.   Hi-SP allows 7 1/2 hours of data to be recorded onto a single 1G disc.  Uncompressed, a 1G disc can only get about 92 minutes worth.

I've done A vs. B testing of the two and there is a sonic difference, but if you weren't doing a side by side A vs. B test, you'd never know or hear the difference.  So a great sounding rig still sounds great in Hi-SP mode with the added advantage that the recording has no drop outs due to 'tape flips'.

[dorrcoq]

Hi-SP allows 7 1/2 hours of data to be recorded onto a single 1G disc.  Uncompressed, a 1G disc can only get about 92 minutes worth.

I don't really know anything about MDs, but if you get 450 minutes on Hi-SP versus 92 minutes in the uncompressed mode, doesn't that mean that the files are comrpessed 5 to 1?  I would think that would cause some noticeable degradation in quality.

[phriq]

I was using a Sony NET MD Walkman MZN505 Type-R for my recorder (i asked about the hard drive recorders becuase i am borrowing this one. I was using dual binuaral mics through my 9v battery module. i was using the 160hz bass roll off. the mics were plugged into the battery module and that was pluged in to my MD through a Line in (Optical) input. It doesnt have a mic in. as for the overload. I wasnt getting any distortion elsewere in the track or anything else that would suggest overload (i have a home studio, so i pretty sure i know what the overload woudl sound like) I had it set a low recorder volume. it goes 1-30 and i recored the show at 10. i normalized the track with adobe audition. I think the bass problem is the compression on the MD recorder. i am going to a few more shows this week and am going to record and i will see if i can correct the problom at all. but all suggestions are very welcome. i am very new to live recordings. why would the iRiver be bad for sound? cant you record .wav uncompressed with that? any help toward a fairly less expensive but great sounding recording device (that is small enough to stealth and crotch) will be very much appreciated. thanks all. if you have more questions to my setup. just ask. and thanks for all the input.

[beefstew]

can u post a sample? 

[phriq]

how do i do that?

[stevetoney]

Hi-SP allows 7 1/2 hours of data to be recorded onto a single 1G disc.  Uncompressed, a 1G disc can only get about 92 minutes worth.

I don't really know anything about MDs, but if you get 450 minutes on Hi-SP versus 92 minutes in the uncompressed mode, doesn't that mean that the files are comrpessed 5 to 1?  I would think that would cause some noticeable degradation in quality.

Please read my first post.  I wasn't bullshitting.  Very minimal degradation in quality.  Many many Hi-MD users use the Hi-SP mode for this reason.

[poorlyconditioned]

I was using a Sony NET MD Walkman MZN505 Type-R for my recorder (i asked about the hard drive recorders becuase i am borrowing this one. I was using dual binuaral mics through my 9v battery module. i was using the 160hz bass roll off. the mics were plugged into the battery module and that was pluged in to my MD through a Line in (Optical) input. It doesnt have a mic in. as for the overload. I wasnt getting any distortion elsewere in the track or anything else that would suggest overload (i have a home studio, so i pretty sure i know what the overload woudl sound like) I had it set a low recorder volume. it goes 1-30 and i recored the show at 10. i normalized the track with adobe audition. I think the bass problem is the compression on the MD recorder. i am going to a few more shows this week and am going to record and i will see if i can correct the problom at all. but all suggestions are very welcome. i am very new to live recordings. why would the iRiver be bad for sound? cant you record .wav uncompressed with that? any help toward a fairly less expensive but great sounding recording device (that is small enough to stealth and crotch) will be very much appreciated. thanks all. if you have more questions to my setup. just ask. and thanks for all the input.

If you had to run line in at level #10/30, that must have been a *very* loud show.

My best guess is that distortion happened *at the mic*, and not on the MD input, or compression stages.  You can test this by recording some material at a lower volume (eg., from your stereo speakers) and see how that sounds.  Is the bass OK on that.

To fix this problem you need to power the microphones properly, eg., using a "3 wire" battery box.  I don't have time to explain this right now, but if you look around this forum, you should find some info.

  Richard

[stevetoney]

I think the bass problem is the compression on the MD recorder.

If the poor sound is basically on the bass tones and the bass is very unsaturated and sounds like a sorta warbling almost underwater sorta sound, that's what my messed up ATRAC bass sounded like, FWIW.  I don't want to argue with others about whether it's ATRAC or mic overload...just trying to give you some of my experience.

any help toward a fairly less expensive but great sounding recording device (that is small enough to stealth and crotch) will be very much appreciated.

I can't address your question about the iriver.  However, since stealth and expense seem to be your main criteria, since you're already familiar with the MD format, I'd strongly consider Hi-MD.  You should be able to find one used I'd think for $150 or maybe even less.  minidisco.com always has a great selection of new units.  I've used mine now for 3 years and have been very pleased.  The biggest negative about them vs. the hard drive units is that I don't download my files direct to harddrive, so after a show, I end up using Audition to perform a real time analog capture of the show.  There _IS_ software available that enables pure digital file translation, but I've found it to be a bit unreliable and have performed an analog backup BEFORE I try the digital file download because it's not all that stable and has caused me to lose some shows before.