Topic: Handheld recorder for very loud sounds?

[flyingpylon]

I'm new here, so first I'd like to compliment everyone on all of the sharing of information and making this a great site.  It's a fantastic resource.

I've been recording sounds from auto racing events for the last few years and find myself in need of some recording gear advice.

I started recording with a Sony MZ-RH10 Hi-MD with a pair of Sound Professionals SP-TFB-2 in-ear binaurals (standard sensitivity) connected to LINE-IN via SP's SP-SPSB-1 slimline battery module.  The combination worked very well together, but in the last year or so I have started having a few problems with recordings that could be played on the device but could not be transferred by Sony's SonicStage software.  I've come to the conclusion that I no longer trust the device and I never want to have my recordings trapped in a proprietary file format again.

So last year I pre-ordered the Zoom H2 since it seemed like the perfect recorder for my needs.  It was small, had internal mics, recorded timestamped wav files to SD cards, had a tripod mount, and some other great features.  Unfortunately, what I and others found out was that the only way to set the recording levels before A/D conversion was via the 3-position gain switch, and the L setting is still too high for my needs.  Even when I connect my in-ear mics with the battery module to the H2's LINE-IN, it's still too high.  So I would need to add an attenuator of some sort.  That's not expensive, but by the time I add that I'm getting a long way away from what I thought I was getting with the H2 (an ultra-portable device with no extra components, wires, etc.). So I'm out looking for other options.

My requirements are as follows:

• Small, handheld size. Not for stealth, but for convenience. I am primarily a photographer, and I want something that can fit in a pocket or photo vest fairly easily. An all-in-one device is highly preferred.
• Analog adjustment of recording levels (if only the H2 had this I'd probably be happy).
• Records standard wav files, preferably with timestamps, to a standard flash memory card like SD/SDHC/CF or even memory stick if necessary.
• Internal microphones, for two reasons. First, I need to be able to "whip it out" and start a recording quickly (could be for sounds, or for a quick interview). Second, wearing the in-ear binaurals has become cumbersome. They're not quick to set up, the wires get tangled with my camera, and it's not possible to wear hearing protection at the same time. Not to mention the "dork" factor...
• An easy way to attach the device to a mini tripod. There are times when I'm in one place long enough that I'd like to just set it up and let it record for a while.
• Able to withstand sometimes severe sound pressure levels. The most intense ones are at the start of a race when all of the cars are close together, or at any drag race involving top fuel dragsters.
• Not too much noise or hiss during quieter recordings. Due to the dynamic range between the sound of the cars and the track announcers, etc. I sometimes have to boost levels in post-processing to make everything audible.
• Price under $500. (hopefully you are not laughing out loud!)

I've been very interested in the Sony PCM-D50 though it would be a bit of a stretch price-wise. Especially due to it's unique limiter- at first glance it seems like it could really be useful in my situation. However, I'm concerned that the internal mics are listed as "high sensitivity" and by reports that even moving the device slightly during recording causes wind noise. I would be willing to bend over and pay the $50 for the windscreen, but oversensitivity would definitely be a concern. I wouldn't want to pay all that money for the device and still end up having to attach external mics, a battery module, etc.

So, any advice? I realize that everything will have compromises of some sort. As I said, if only the H2 allowed me to lower the levels before A/D conversion I'd probably be all set. But as it is, it just doesn't work for my application.

Thanks for any help anyone can provide.

Paul

[arrowman]

My semi-loud rock band uses a Sony PCM-D50 ($450) and it works well.  You would probably need a windscreen though for outside use.

good luck,
am

[flintstone]

Take a look at the Edirol R-09. The review by Leonard Lombardo, who posts here using the name "guysonic," indicates that the R-09 has exceptional ability to work with very high voltage (that is, loud sounds) through the line input.  The review is posted here:  http://www.sonicstudios.com/r-09revw.htm  The section about the line input is in a tannish yellow box about 1/3 the way down the page.

The Edirol R-09 compares well to the batch of new recorders announced recently.  The R-09 has been in the hands of end users for about 2 years, so its strengths and weaknesses are well known.  See the R-09 FAQ here for more information  http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,71818.0.html

Flintstone

[pgoelz]

What about the R-1?  It had an analog record level control.... did it control the input stage? 

Paul

[Mike Rivera]

Once you add memory to the Edirol R-09, you're basically paying very close to what a D-50 costs (with 4 GB internal standard), and I think the D-50 is a lot nicer.  I can't see how anyone would buy anything other than the Sony if you're considering spending between $350 and $600 on a recorder.  I paid about $450 for mine.

Why not use the Sony with your SP-TFB-2 in-ear binaurals and between the -20 db limiter and the level setting dial it sounds like it would be perfect.

- Mike

[Ekib]

I know you don't want the Sonic Stage software no more but the latest model the MZ RH1 is totally perfect. I haven't had any problem converting to Sonic Stage. Have you tried using version 4.3 ? I was using version 3.4 for a while and had problems also. But they fixed them with this one completely. Maybe if you use your MZ RH 10 with version 4.3 it works better. But the MZ RH1 is the way to go. For example there's no limit in uploading the same recording anymore.
I usually make an analog back up anyway before transfering. For example if you have a simple soundcard you can still concert the recording by playing it in real time. Or just copy it to a DAT or whatever you can think of.

About the mic's...I am getting comments on this the whole time...but I don't like binaurals at all ( to write it down nicely  ) No wonder you have problems with overloading and distorting on loud sounds. The only way to go is Card's when it comes to loud sounds. Or you need additional bass roll off's and all that. So what's the point ? I can tell you Core sound card's can record a jetfighter at close range with no problem. Offcourse you still need a -20 DB setting . But they're the best choice.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I can't see how anyone would buy anything other than the Sony if you're considering spending between $350 and $600 on a recorder.

One reason is that there have been many comps which verified the quality of the r09 a/d stage and sound... But I haven't seen a single one for the sony.

For recording dragsters and the like you will probably need external mics. That is a fairly unique requirement and most internals aren't designed for recording anything that loud.

[Mike Rivera]

I can't see how anyone would buy anything other than the Sony if you're considering spending between $350 and $600 on a recorder.

One reason is that there have been many comps which verified the quality of the r09 a/d stage and sound... But I haven't seen a single one for the sony.

I didn't mean to offend you, but based on several on-line reviews by Brad Linder, Mark Nelson, and Stephanie Wingfield; and my own ears, I think it's becoming apparent the Sony does a fine job.  Then add the Sony features, ergonomics, build quality and general professional "feel", and if I was offered a choice of the R-09 or D-50 for virtually the same price, I'd choose the Sony.  Again, just my opinion.

- Mike

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I didn't mean to offend you, but based on several on-line reviews by Brad Linder, Mark Nelson, and Stephanie Wingfield; and my own ears, I think it's becoming apparent the Sony does a fine job.

Offense?  Of course not... Better products are always welcome. The r09 set the bar pretty high. I just like to hear the comps with my own ears.  And when done as a poll, as we have with the r09, it becomes a somewhat decent double blind test where we collect multiple opinions.

It generally takes quite a bit of shakedown time in this community before the limitations of a new recorder are discovered... Not sure if we are to that point yet with the Sony.  One of the the easier comps to do is a v3 comp where the analog path to the recorder is compared against the built in a/d.  From the other d50 thread it sounds like that should happen soon.  Guysonic's measurements of the line-in handling are encouraging.. Still waiting for users here to report results with high end pre-amps and mics.

[flyingpylon]

I really appreciate everyone's replies.  Unfortunately as we all know, regardless of the particular application, life is full of compromises.

I'll look into the Edirol R-09 and the Sony PCM-D50 some more, but if it turns out that I'd need to use external mics anyway, then I'd probably stick with my Zoom H2 for this year.  I'd just need to get an attenuator cable.

Part of the difficulty I have is that the events I record are big, once a year events (as opposed to recording a weekly racing series or something).  So I typically spend late winter and early spring agonizing over my choices and budget, and the rest of the year living with whatever decisions I've made.  The once a year thing is also why I will not go back to MiniDisc.  If I get burned (like I did last year) then I have to wait another entire year, and I've lost the opportunity to record an historic moment.  I know that as long as I can play the track on the MD I can make an analog transfer, but to my ears it sounds nowhere near as good.

I'd really really like to get away from external mics for the reasons I mentioned in my original post.  But maybe it's just not meant to be.  By the way, I prefer binaural mics because I'm trying to capture the feeling of being there as opposed to very specific sounds.  In most cases anyway.  And I do not seem to get overloading on the SP-TFB-2 mics, as far as I can tell.

Based on the (admittedly few) samples I've heard from the D50, it seems that the recordings are very "bright" or not as warm as some others (I have a limited vocabulary to describe recordings!).  It seems to be very distinct. For those that have more experience with the D50, do you find that to be true in general, and do you feel the recordings are accurate with what you experienced with your own ears?  The other recorders seem more consistent with each other... are they collectively that far off?

[Ekib]

I really appreciate everyone's replies.  Unfortunately as we all know, regardless of the particular application, life is full of compromises.

I'll look into the Edirol R-09 and the Sony PCM-D50 some more, but if it turns out that I'd need to use external mics anyway, then I'd probably stick with my Zoom H2 for this year.  I'd just need to get an attenuator cable.

Part of the difficulty I have is that the events I record are big, once a year events (as opposed to recording a weekly racing series or something).  So I typically spend late winter and early spring agonizing over my choices and budget, and the rest of the year living with whatever decisions I've made.  The once a year thing is also why I will not go back to MiniDisc.  If I get burned (like I did last year) then I have to wait another entire year, and I've lost the opportunity to record an historic moment.  I know that as long as I can play the track on the MD I can make an analog transfer, but to my ears it sounds nowhere near as good.

I'd really really like to get away from external mics for the reasons I mentioned in my original post.  But maybe it's just not meant to be.  By the way, I prefer binaural mics because I'm trying to capture the feeling of being there as opposed to very specific sounds.  In most cases anyway.  And I do not seem to get overloading on the SP-TFB-2 mics, as far as I can tell.

Based on the (admittedly few) samples I've heard from the D50, it seems that the recordings are very "bright" or not as warm as some others (I have a limited vocabulary to describe recordings!).  It seems to be very distinct. For those that have more experience with the D50, do you find that to be true in general, and do you feel the recordings are accurate with what you experienced with your own ears?  The other recorders seem more consistent with each other... are they collectively that far off?

This is a really cool place indeed ! I have gotten very useful advice here.

I wanted to comment on one thing...

The once a year thing is also why I will not go back to MiniDisc.  If I get burned (like I did last year) then I have to wait another entire year, and I've lost the opportunity to record an historic moment.  I know that as long as I can play the track on the MD I can make an analog transfer, but to my ears it sounds nowhere near as good.

I can see your points. But just realize one thing...no recorder , whatever standard or brand , can guarantee you that. I am not trying to convince you to go back to Minidisc. It's just I have been taping for 25 years now. I started out with Walkman's , moved over to DAT and now for practical reasons ( the size and stealth ) to Minidisc. And I have had historical concerts where my recorder just failed. No matter how hard you prepare...things do go wrong. I have had batteries gone empty at once or totally fail , perfect new wires breaking down , DAT tapes don't record etc.etc. ( not to mention the concert that starts an hour earlier and arriving too late  ) I can almost write a book. Every concert ( in my case ) is a chance. I am always praying nothing fails. Luckily most recordings do come out good. But there's always the occasional that messes up. It's part of the job !

Anyway , good luck whatever you are getting !

May I recommend Core-sound's attenuator cable? A friend of mine uses it for his videocamera to record concerts and it works flawless.

[live2496]

Maybe it would be possible to modify the H2 mics so that they were attentuated a bit. It could be as simple as adding some resistors inline.

I'm no expert on this, so I will defer to those more knowledgeable in electronics on this list.

Get two H2's. One modded and one not. Use the unmodded one for voice, the modded one for recording the cars. If running both at the same time, you can pick the best recording for the situation.

Gordon

[sunjan]

My requirements are as follows:

• Small, handheld size. Not for stealth, but for convenience. I am primarily a photographer, and I want something that can fit in a pocket or photo vest fairly easily. An all-in-one device is highly preferred.
• Analog adjustment of recording levels (if only the H2 had this I'd probably be happy).
• Records standard wav files, preferably with timestamps, to a standard flash memory card like SD/SDHC/CF or even memory stick if necessary.
• Internal microphones, for two reasons. First, I need to be able to "whip it out" and start a recording quickly (could be for sounds, or for a quick interview). Second, wearing the in-ear binaurals has become cumbersome. They're not quick to set up, the wires get tangled with my camera, and it's not possible to wear hearing protection at the same time. Not to mention the "dork" factor...
• An easy way to attach the device to a mini tripod. There are times when I'm in one place long enough that I'd like to just set it up and let it record for a while.
• Able to withstand sometimes severe sound pressure levels. The most intense ones are at the start of a race when all of the cars are close together, or at any drag race involving top fuel dragsters.
• Not too much noise or hiss during quieter recordings. Due to the dynamic range between the sound of the cars and the track announcers, etc. I sometimes have to boost levels in post-processing to make everything audible.
• Price under $500. (hopefully you are not laughing out loud!)

Hi Paul,

I had a slightly similar scenario (hand held,internals, one-off events) and you might be interested to read this thread:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,96738.0.html

Like mentioned earlier, for this type of "once-in-a-lifetime events", play safe and always run a second backup rig. Now you have a H2, bring it along even after upgrading.

I'm totally with you on moving away from MD. Stick to devices with built-in mics, for this kind of journalist job where you have to work on location and be on the move, cables can be a drag.

I'm not sure if Zoom H4 suffers from the same flaw as the H2, but at least it has a very convenient tripod mount. Did you check it out?

/Jan

[kbergend]

I'm thinking the Marantz PMD620 should suit your needs in most respects.  It powers on in just a few seconds, records PCM for hours on two AA batteries to an inexpensive 4Gb SD card, and has decent-sounding internal mics with switchable -12db and -24dB attenuation (you will get considerable noise if you have to boost gain heavily in post, but I suspect this will be true for any low-priced recorder used without a separate preamp).  The recording levels adjust from -29dB to 0dB in 1dB increments.  It comes with a bracket for mounting on a tripod.  I don't know how sensitive the mics are to wind  -- they certainly pick up noise when I blow on them -- but it should be easy enough to make a sock for them.  I've had mine for about three weeks and I'm very happy with it so far.   One thing I think may create some problems for you is that there's a slight click when you depress the rec level switch up or down to adjust the gain.  You can't hear it with external mics located more than a few inches away from the unit, but it's quite audible using the internals.

I can also recommend Core's attenuator cable for your Zoom.  M-Audio also makes a compact -10dB stereo pad (1/8" jack to 1/8" mini-plug), although I haven't used it myself.

[flyingpylon]

Thanks again for all of the input. 

After some more research and finding a good deal, I've decided to give the Marantz PMD620 a try (I had started seriously considering it just before kbergend's suggestion).  It's got the small size I'm looking for, mic attenuation, level adjustment on all inputs, broadcast wave format, belt clip with tripod mount, runs on AAs, etc.  I think the custom presets will come in very handy, and even something seemingly minor like the attachment point for the wrist strap will be very useful to me.

I realize that I may still need to use external mics with a battery module for the very loudest sounds, but it sounds like that's probably true of any recorder.  And I think I'll be able to work around the audible clicks when changing recording levels while using the internal mics.  Number one, I shouldn't have to do it much, and number two I always seem to end up discarding tracks where I've made a level adjustment anyway because I can't adequately fix them with my limited editing skills.

Assuming everything checks out okay with the PMD620, I'll be e-baying my Sony MZ-RH10 and Zoom H2 and moving on.