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Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: mandoman on October 07, 2006, 03:14:43 PM
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Korg announced at AES what may become the holy grail
of portable field recorders. These are super high
quality 1-bit DSD (Direct Sream Digital) recorders, This is Sony's
super high quality format used for SACD.
These recorders are portable and surprisningly affordable.
They record to internal 20gb hdd's. The smaller mr-1 is a little
bigger than an ipod, and includes 2 balanced connectors on 1/8" jacks and mini mic,
while the bigger table top version includes 48v phantom with what was
described as very transparant and neutral mic pres. The mr-1 uses
LiIon for ~5 hrs recording time, and the bigger mr-1000 uses 8XAA.
Transfers are done with usb2.0. Both recorders include pc/mac software that will convert DSD to any other
format at any bit depth and sampling frequency.
The best thing is the price. mr-1: Streets for somewhere between $600-800,
and the mr-1000 around $1200. Expected to ship early next year, februrary time frame.
I was at AES to check these out in person
and the protos not only sounded great, but felt very sturdy, professional, and robust.
This product is HOT. I expect everyone on this forum is going to want one or the
other (or both!) of these units. I can't WAIT to get my hands on one.
More details here:
http://www.korg.com/gear/info.asp?a_prod_no=MR__Series&category_id=3
Mandoman
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oh my.
thanks for the info.
these look sweet!!!
(http://www.korg.com/gear/images/products/info/info_MR__Series.jpg)
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Still there is no digi in on either. The MR-1 would be the shit if it had a digi in and accept 24/96. It may however be a stealthers dream.....and replace the R9. If the R9 would just support 4gig cards and higher.....Thats the only thing keeping me from getting one. But with the MR-1 coming out, I might just have to wait and see..... >:D
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Wow interesting indeed, did they give any release dates? I didn't see any on the info page...
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Still there is no digi in on either. The MR-1 would be the shit if it had a digi in and accept 24/96. It may however be a stealthers dream.....and replace the R9. If the R9 would just support 4gig cards and higher.....Thats the only thing keeping me from getting one. But with the MR-1 coming out, I might just have to wait and see..... >:D
I don't know of any A>D converters that have the option to output at 1 bit/2.8MHz, so I don't think there is any use for that feature on one of these. I'm definitely interested in these assuming that the analog inputs aren't noisy and depending on how the mr-1000 pres sound. Also, how many GBs would a 3 hour concert be if recorded in this format? With only a 20GB hard drive, taping a festival would probably require frequent dumping to a laptop.
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The Korg web site has a press release that says the new recorders will work
either in 1 bit mode, or in traditional PCM mode at data rates up to 24/192:
http://www.korg.com/service/press_txt.asp?PRID=206
So you can choose which style of recording fits your needs.
Flintstone
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Awesome!
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i wonder how much these puppies are going to cost?
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Still there is no digi in on either. The MR-1 would be the shit if it had a digi in and accept 24/96. It may however be a stealthers dream.....and replace the R9. If the R9 would just support 4gig cards and higher.....Thats the only thing keeping me from getting one. But with the MR-1 coming out, I might just have to wait and see..... >:D
I don't know of any A>D converters that have the option to output at 1 bit/2.8MHz, so I don't think there is any use for that feature on one of these. I'm definitely interested in these assuming that the analog inputs aren't noisy and depending on how the mr-1000 pres sound. Also, how many GBs would a 3 hour concert be if recorded in this format? With only a 20GB hard drive, taping a festival would probably require frequent dumping to a laptop.
To give you an idea. Just a rough calculation but 3hrs would be about 7.75GB in 2.8224MHz/1-bit DSD or roughly 7.5hrs on a 20GB HD.
Record times on 4.7GB DVD+rw media from the Tascam DVRA1000 manual :
Record time Bit-Rate
290 mins 44.1/24 PCM
267 mins 48/24 PCM
144 mins 88.2/24 PCM
133 mins 96/24 PCM
109 mins 2.8224MHz/1-bit DSD
72 mins 176.4/24 PCM
66 mins 192/24 PCM
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Still there is no digi in on either. The MR-1 would be the shit if it had a digi in and accept 24/96. It may however be a stealthers dream.....and replace the R9. If the R9 would just support 4gig cards and higher.....Thats the only thing keeping me from getting one. But with the MR-1 coming out, I might just have to wait and see..... >:D
DSD recorder. Is that compatible with linear PCM?
If it was, why record in DSD anyway?
What would be the reasons for recording in DSD in a `field` setting? (rock concert...)
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Still there is no digi in on either. The MR-1 would be the shit if it had a digi in and accept 24/96. It may however be a stealthers dream.....and replace the R9. If the R9 would just support 4gig cards and higher.....Thats the only thing keeping me from getting one. But with the MR-1 coming out, I might just have to wait and see..... >:D
The only thing you can't do with a 4 GB card on the R-09 is format it on the deck. Just connect the R-09 to the computer and format it from there.
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Only would-be flaw so far is the internal Li-Ion battery. Would Korg offer replacement batteries?
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Did you see that the tabletop unit can actually do 5.6mhz audio? I.e., 2x SA-CD quality. That's hot!
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Did you see that the tabletop unit can actually do 5.6mhz audio? I.e., 2x SA-CD quality. That's hot!
Do we actually need that resolution and whatever?
Of course it is nice. But for 'our' purpose?
In time storage prices will fall even more so my question will be unnecessary but at this point in time?
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Did you see that the tabletop unit can actually do 5.6mhz audio? I.e., 2x SA-CD quality. That's hot!
Do we actually need that resolution and whatever?
Of course it is nice. But for 'our' purpose?
In time storage prices will fall even more so my question will be unnecessary but at this point in time?
Yes you need that resolution its all about the lack of division of a wave form 96k is 96 thousand samples per second of a wave form 2.6mhz is 2.6 million ( I will take 2.6 million) if capturing the event exactly the way your mics heard it is important. Analog does not have this problem because there is no quantization of the wave form its linear = voltage = sound. With digital its the more 0's and 1's you have the closer you are to analog, and the closer you are to a truly linear transfer function.
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Still there is no digi in on either. The MR-1 would be the shit if it had a digi in and accept 24/96. It may however be a stealthers dream.....and replace the R9. If the R9 would just support 4gig cards and higher.....Thats the only thing keeping me from getting one. But with the MR-1 coming out, I might just have to wait and see..... >:D
The sales reps told me that there is no way for dsd to understand a spdif stream. But it still
would have been nice to have for when you record in pcm mode. The sales rep bragged that
the converters are incredible, so there really is no point in using an external AD. If they are
as good as he says, these are going to be sweet units.
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Wow interesting indeed, did they give any release dates? I didn't see any on the info page...
If you read my original post more carefully, you would have found the answer.
The units are supposed to ship in Februrary, but I'd take any release date with a grain
of salt.
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i wonder how much these puppies are going to cost?
I gave prices in my original post. The reps told me around $700 for the mr1 and around $1200
for the mr1000, plus or minus a couple of hundred. That's street price.
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Only would-be flaw so far is the internal Li-Ion battery. Would Korg offer replacement batteries?
I asked the rep about the LiIon. He wasn't sure about what the replacement policy would be.
The unit does at least havea DC input on it, so you could easily use an external battery
for extended record times or as a backup when your LiIon starts to not hold it's charge.
If you are that concerned about the battery, than maybe you should go for mr1000.
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Did you see that the tabletop unit can actually do 5.6mhz audio? I.e., 2x SA-CD quality. That's hot!
Yep, they call that WDSD. SWEET!
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Did you see that the tabletop unit can actually do 5.6mhz audio? I.e., 2x SA-CD quality. That's hot!
Do we actually need that resolution and whatever?
Of course it is nice. But for 'our' purpose?
In time storage prices will fall even more so my question will be unnecessary but at this point in time?
Yes you need that resolution its all about the lack of division of a wave form 96k is 96 thousand samples per second of a wave form 2.6mhz is 2.6 million ( I will take 2.6 million) if capturing the event exactly the way your mics heard it is important. Analog does not have this problem because there is no quantization of the wave form its linear = voltage = sound. With digital its the more 0's and 1's you have the closer you are to analog, and the closer you are to a truly linear transfer function.
This is Korg's whole marketing angle. They say ideal for archiving because it's more future proof because you don't get the quantization when converting to current and future formats.
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Cool.. I was just thinking we were due for some good vapor gear to argue about.
From the description of the portable: By recording in 1-bit/2.8 MHz format you are assured that your most important, once-in-a-lifetime moments are captured in stunning detail,
FWIW... Quick math.. 1 bit at 2.8 Mhz.. Is that per channel?
One channel of 24/96k is 2.3 Mhz. So don't let the Mhz freak you that this is huge bandwidth...
Though... As we have discussed many times, it can be difficult to use all of those 24 bits. Maybe the 1 bit approach makes better utilization of the data density/bandwith.. I doubt dsd will ever be good enough to justify the proprietary and closed format.
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I was checking these out, too. Very solid feel and for that money they damn well better be.
Korg wasn't at summer NAMM but they had an AES prime location for these 2 items only so obviously they are proud to be rolling out the portable DSD. I like the sound of DSD but it really isn't distribution friendly. They bundle the software to convert to PCM, too.
I look forward to hearing some live recordings on these.
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Maybe I will put off that R-09 purchase a little longer. Joining thread...
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Maybe I will put off that R-09 purchase a little longer. Joining thread...
Me too. And I just bought a 4GB SD card... :-[
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Freelunch wrote
"1 bit at 2.8 Mhz.. Is that per channel? One channel of 24/96k is 2.3 Mhz.
So don't let the Mhz freak you that this is huge bandwidth..."
Just about all modern A/D circuitry starts by converting the voltage from the
mic into a one-bit digital stream. Then that stream is decimated and filtered
to create the PCM. So 18% of the information captured at 2.8mHz is discarded
to create the PCM 24/96 file.
People who are one-bit delta-sigma modulation snobs look down at PCM
the same way PCM fans look down at MP3 and ATRAC -- who wants the
compressed/reduced/abridged version when the uncompressed file is available?
Flintstone
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One channel of 24/96k is 2.3 Mhz. So don't let the Mhz freak you that this is huge bandwidth...
I'm only trying to recount something I learnt 20 years ago ...
Whilst 24/96 may be 2.3 MBits ... from a freq perspective it is half that ie 1.15 Mhz (max freq is when you have a 101010... bit pattern and you need 2 bits for 1 cycle).
So wouldn't the 2.8 Mhz take it beyond 24/196?
Maybe the more astute types can correct my thinking.
Cheers
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Still there is no digi in on either. The MR-1 would be the shit if it had a digi in and accept 24/96. It may however be a stealthers dream.....and replace the R9. If the R9 would just support 4gig cards and higher.....Thats the only thing keeping me from getting one. But with the MR-1 coming out, I might just have to wait and see..... >:D
I would imagine that if you had the desire to record DSD, and picked up one of these recorders to do so, you wouldnt need a digital in.
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Looks cool! Now, where's my portable, affordable, 4 channel DSD recorder :)
Stupid side question: if you record in DSD, can you burn the DSD to a DVD and have it play on any SACD player? Also, I'm assuming there is software to edit the DSD recording (not just convert to PCM)?
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Maybe I will put off that R-09 purchase a little longer. Joining thread...
Me too. And I just bought a 4GB SD card... :-[
Well I'd buy an R-09 anyway, February 2007 is a little ways away, and we all know not to expect it by then :P
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Looks cool! Now, where's my portable, affordable, 4 channel DSD recorder :)
Stupid side question: if you record in DSD, can you burn the DSD to a DVD and have it play on any SACD player? Also, I'm assuming there is software to edit the DSD recording (not just convert to PCM)?
I have not seen software to go DSD > SACD. Perhaps thats what they mean by future prrof ? Like for now you can take the dsd and convert to PCM until the time when DSD > SACD becomes affordable
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The smaller mr-1 is a little bigger than an ipod, and includes 2 balanced connectors on 1/8" jacks and mini mic, while the bigger table top version includes 48v phantom with what was described as very transparant and neutral mic pres.
So, this would mean that the mr-1 does not support 48v phantom, right?
So, what is the "mic power" button for on the mr-1?
Very interesting recorder!
Roel
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Looks cool! Now, where's my portable, affordable, 4 channel DSD recorder :)
Stupid side question: if you record in DSD, can you burn the DSD to a DVD and have it play on any SACD player? Also, I'm assuming there is software to edit the DSD recording (not just convert to PCM)?
I have not seen software to go DSD > SACD. Perhaps thats what they mean by future prrof ? Like for now you can take the dsd and convert to PCM until the time when DSD > SACD becomes affordable
So to listen to the DSD, you have to use the recorder itself? Can you even listen to DSD through the computer? Seems kind of odd that you can't burn to SACD, but then again it is a proprietary format. I guess quality analog outs are important for these devices.
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The MR-1 looks sweet. I better start saving!
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The smaller mr-1 is a little bigger than an ipod, and includes 2 balanced connectors on 1/8" jacks and mini mic, while the bigger table top version includes 48v phantom with what was described as very transparant and neutral mic pres.
So, this would mean that the mr-1 does not support 48v phantom, right?
So, what is the "mic power" button for on the mr-1?
Very interesting recorder!
Roel
The 'mic power' button on the mr-1 is for the included mini mic. It's not 48v phantom. 5v maybe?
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I have not seen software to go DSD > SACD. Perhaps thats what they mean by future proof ? Like for now you can take the dsd and convert to PCM until the time when DSD > SACD becomes affordable
And this doesn't exactly fall under the "affordable" category ;D
http://www.sonicstudio.com/products/dsd/sacdc.html
Is there any other DSD>SACD software out there that is less than 5K?
I think that the DV-RA1000 users have a discWelder version that converts/burns the DSD masters to 24/192 PCM (or lower), but have they promised a DSD>SACD in the future?
Later,
pjdavep
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the DSD to SACD requires expensive authoring tools..only a few mastering houses have this capability, as far as I know. it isnt a simple thing.
no ...there is nothing less than 5k
there will not be any DSD>>>SACD tools for consumers. just wont happen.
http://www.airshowmastering.com/sacdimg/SACD.pdf
I have not seen software to go DSD > SACD. Perhaps thats what they mean by future proof ? Like for now you can take the dsd and convert to PCM until the time when DSD > SACD becomes affordable
And this doesn't exactly fall under the "affordable" category ;D
http://www.sonicstudio.com/products/dsd/sacdc.html
Is there any other DSD>SACD software out there that is less than 5K?
I think that the DV-RA1000 users have a discWelder version that converts/burns the DSD masters to 24/192 PCM (or lower), but have they promised a DSD>SACD in the future?
Later,
pjdavep
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there are only a couple of platforms such as Pyramix, Sadie, and Sonic Studios that allow you to edit DSD material. there is also the sonoma workstation, which isnt cheap.
you cannot just burn the DSD to DVD and play anywhere...you have to get the DSD authored to SACD.
Looks cool! Now, where's my portable, affordable, 4 channel DSD recorder :)
Stupid side question: if you record in DSD, can you burn the DSD to a DVD and have it play on any SACD player? Also, I'm assuming there is software to edit the DSD recording (not just convert to PCM)?
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well, there are a number of DSD Converters on the market..
Prism, weiss, emm labs, grimm, digital audio denmark.... I use an external converter with my Tascam DVRA..(1st gen meitner)
TeddyStill there is no digi in on either. The MR-1 would be the shit if it had a digi in and accept 24/96. It may however be a stealthers dream.....and replace the R9. If the R9 would just support 4gig cards and higher.....Thats the only thing keeping me from getting one. But with the MR-1 coming out, I might just have to wait and see..... >:D
I would imagine that if you had the desire to record DSD, and picked up one of these recorders to do so, you wouldnt need a digital in.
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there are only a couple of platforms such as Pyramix, Sadie, and Sonic Studios that allow you to edit DSD material. there is also the sonoma workstation, which isnt cheap.
you cannot just burn the DSD to DVD and play anywhere...you have to get the DSD authored to SACD.
Looks cool! Now, where's my portable, affordable, 4 channel DSD recorder :)
Stupid side question: if you record in DSD, can you burn the DSD to a DVD and have it play on any SACD player? Also, I'm assuming there is software to edit the DSD recording (not just convert to PCM)?
Forgive me for asking, then, but what's the point of a consumer device that records to DSD? Are they hoping that consumer DSD devices will spaw affordable or free DSD editing/SACD authoring software?
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I just got back from AES as well. I can vouch for the build and sound quality of both recorders. They're both very nice, but Korg missed out on a simple feature that would make them much more valuable. If the units themselves could act as a computer audio interface, bang- instant DSD sound card. Who's got a DSD sound in their computer these days? Oh well.
As far as why DSD, just look at a sine wave as described in 24/96 versus DSD. It's the closest thing we're going to have to a noiseless 1 inch analog you can slip into your pocket. I was about to drop a grand on the TASCAM HD-PS2. I'm going to wait and see now.
Cool forum, I'm finally getting back into field recording and this is a really great place.
Justin
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As far as why DSD, just look at a sine wave as described in 24/96 versus DSD. It's the closest thing we're going to have to a noiseless 1 inch analog you can slip into your pocket. I was about to drop a grand on the TASCAM HD-PS2. I'm going to wait and see now.
Welcome to TS!
And as far as why NOT DSD... How the f do you LOOK at a DSD sine wave? I'm serious... How can I actually do it today?
I mean, give me 5 minutes and I can write an application from scratch that will read the PCM data from a wav and plot it.. Because the format is not proprietary. I don't have to worry about how I will read the PCM masters in 20 or 30 years. With DSD, I would always need an application that could work with the latest computer hardware and OS, etc..
Also, how are people going to playback? I'm not giving up my squeezebox. So that means converting everything to PCM.
Back to your original 'viz a sinewave'... Look at a 3000hz sine wave in 44.1Khz. Even at that low frequency, very few points define the sine wave. There is the basic question of how the DAC generates the analog output from the digital input but we're straying from the core DSD issue..
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As far as why DSD, just look at a sine wave as described in 24/96 versus DSD. It's the closest thing we're going to have to a noiseless 1 inch analog you can slip into your pocket. I was about to drop a grand on the TASCAM HD-PS2. I'm going to wait and see now.
And as far as why NOT DSD... How the f do you LOOK at a DSD sine wave? I'm serious... How can I actually do it today?
So we need an open source solution to go from DSD to PCM?
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well, It has always been that even big recording houses send the raw DSD files to the mastering plants to get the SACD process done..I dont see that changing. I guess maybe this another push to get DSD out there in the world as a serious format.
there are only a couple of platforms such as Pyramix, Sadie, and Sonic Studios that allow you to edit DSD material. there is also the sonoma workstation, which isnt cheap.
you cannot just burn the DSD to DVD and play anywhere...you have to get the DSD authored to SACD.
Looks cool! Now, where's my portable, affordable, 4 channel DSD recorder :)
Stupid side question: if you record in DSD, can you burn the DSD to a DVD and have it play on any SACD player? Also, I'm assuming there is software to edit the DSD recording (not just convert to PCM)?
Forgive me for asking, then, but what's the point of a consumer device that records to DSD? Are they hoping that consumer DSD devices will spaw affordable or free DSD editing/SACD authoring software?
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As far as why DSD, just look at a sine wave as described in 24/96 versus DSD. It's the closest thing we're going to have to a noiseless 1 inch analog you can slip into your pocket. I was about to drop a grand on the TASCAM HD-PS2. I'm going to wait and see now.
And as far as why NOT DSD... How the f do you LOOK at a DSD sine wave? I'm serious... How can I actually do it today?
So we need an open source solution to go from DSD to PCM?
there is already software that does DSD___PCM downsampling. Tascam includes it with their DV_RA1000s.
Teddy
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So we need an open source solution to go from DSD to PCM?
there is already software that does DSD___PCM downsampling. Tascam includes it with their DV_RA1000s.
Teddy
And on page two of this thread it was stated that the Korg devices would be bundled with software that can downsample DSD.
Later,
pjdavep
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And as far as why NOT DSD... How the f do you LOOK at a DSD sine wave? I'm serious... How can I actually do it today?
So we need an open source solution to go from DSD to PCM?
there is already software that does DSD___PCM downsampling. Tascam includes it with their DV_RA1000s.
Do we have source? Will it run on something that is not Windoze?
Do we know the DSD file format (if such a thign exists)?
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And as far as why NOT DSD... How the f do you LOOK at a DSD sine wave? I'm serious... How can I actually do it today?
So we need an open source solution to go from DSD to PCM?
there is already software that does DSD___PCM downsampling. Tascam includes it with their DV_RA1000s.
Do we have source? Will it run on something that is not Windoze?
Do we know the DSD file format (if such a thign exists)?
If you're so worried about the DSD file format, just record in PCM with the thing...or use any of the recorders already available today.
hmm, guess I'll hold out on the 722 and keep kicking the mt around for a bit yet...I won't be taping many shows until these things are released anyway.
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the dsd file format has been around for several years already. the tascam software will run on windows or mac..
DSD isnt something that you are just going to be able to crack, tweak , and mod like PCM. it is a closed format...propreitary in nature.
And as far as why NOT DSD... How the f do you LOOK at a DSD sine wave? I'm serious... How can I actually do it today?
So we need an open source solution to go from DSD to PCM?
there is already software that does DSD___PCM downsampling. Tascam includes it with their DV_RA1000s.
Do we have source? Will it run on something that is not Windoze?
Do we know the DSD file format (if such a thign exists)?
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Interesting gear, too bad about the cost of DSD>SACD software though ...
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the dsd file format has been around for several years already. the tascam software will run on windows or mac..
It will run on those machines TODAY. But it will likely not run on those machines in 10 years. You will need a new version.
DSD isnt something that you are just going to be able to crack, tweak , and mod like PCM. it is a closed format...propreitary in nature.
Oh, it most certainly could be cracked. I just don't think there is a large enough audience for anyone to consider the time worthwhile. If the new itunes format was DSD, it would get cracked.
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So if I cannot edit DSD streams (cut off the parts before and after the interesting parts) nor process a DSD stream (EQ, compress, etc) if necessary, the device is `just` a glorified iRiver H120? (not to be negative, it will certainly work well and sound very good)
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the device is `just` a glorified iRiver H120?
Not really casuse it can do 24bit. I also assume it will sound much better too. Think MT2496 or R09 with a 20GB HD
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Yes, that is what I mean. A better H120.
How typical that suddenly people think and act like I do not deserve tickets.
I even wrote I did not meant to be negative. What does this say about the readers?
THe H120 was chose because it's got a HD.
Glorified because it's an improvement over the H120 (16->24bit, 48 -> 192 KHz).
The main improvement (DSD) has little use as it looks right now.
By the time the devices are released bigger SD/CF cards have come down in price, so the HD could be re-evaluated by then.
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So if I cannot edit DSD streams (cut off the parts before and after the interesting parts) nor process a DSD stream (EQ, compress, etc) if necessary, the device is `just` a glorified iRiver H120? (not to be negative, it will certainly work well and sound very good)
well, aside from the fact that DSD sounds so much better than PCM.. I mean, not even close. DSD is superior in that regard(to redbook pcm)
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So if I cannot edit DSD streams (cut off the parts before and after the interesting parts) nor process a DSD stream (EQ, compress, etc) if necessary, the device is `just` a glorified iRiver H120? (not to be negative, it will certainly work well and sound very good)
well, aside from the fact that DSD sounds so much better than PCM.. I mean, not even close. DSD is superior in that regard(to redbook pcm)
I share udovdh's perspective. I don't doubt it sounds far superior to PCM. But without the ability to edit the recording, or author SACD playback (and for me, I won't go back to media-based playback, so I'd want some sort of PC-based SACD playback), this is not the device for me. I hope the technology and products evolve over time. I'd love to make DSD recordings if they sound so darn good. But not until it becomes usable in a way that meets my requirements. I'm sure those who have different requirements, and for whom the current current technology and products addresses their requirements, will take advantage and use these devices.
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yeah, it is primarily for recording professionals who send work off to mastering houses with SACD capability. though this may help cause a paradigm shift.
So if I cannot edit DSD streams (cut off the parts before and after the interesting parts) nor process a DSD stream (EQ, compress, etc) if necessary, the device is `just` a glorified iRiver H120? (not to be negative, it will certainly work well and sound very good)
well, aside from the fact that DSD sounds so much better than PCM.. I mean, not even close. DSD is superior in that regard(to redbook pcm)
I share udovdh's perspective. I don't doubt it sounds far superior to PCM. But without the ability to edit the recording, or author SACD playback (and for me, I won't go back to media-based playback, so I'd want some sort of PC-based SACD playback), this is not the device for me. I hope the technology and products evolve over time. I'd love to make DSD recordings if they sound so darn good. But not until it becomes usable in a way that meets my requirements. I'm sure those who have different requirements, and for whom the current current technology and products addresses their requirements, will take advantage and use these devices.
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yeah, it is primarily for recording professionals who send work off to mastering houses with SACD capability. though this may help cause a paradigm shift.
So if I cannot edit DSD streams (cut off the parts before and after the interesting parts) nor process a DSD stream (EQ, compress, etc) if necessary, the device is `just` a glorified iRiver H120? (not to be negative, it will certainly work well and sound very good)
well, aside from the fact that DSD sounds so much better than PCM.. I mean, not even close. DSD is superior in that regard(to redbook pcm)
I share udovdh's perspective. I don't doubt it sounds far superior to PCM. But without the ability to edit the recording, or author SACD playback (and for me, I won't go back to media-based playback, so I'd want some sort of PC-based SACD playback), this is not the device for me. I hope the technology and products evolve over time. I'd love to make DSD recordings if they sound so darn good. But not until it becomes usable in a way that meets my requirements. I'm sure those who have different requirements, and for whom the current current technology and products addresses their requirements, will take advantage and use these devices.
Therein lies the problem - these devices appear to be much more "consumer" or "prosumer" rather than for recording professionals. If I'm sending my work to be mastered to SACD (for what is probably a large sum of money), I'd probably also be recording to DSD using much higher quality gear.
Until consumers can edit the DSD stream and author it to SACD and/or listen to it via some media-free transport, recording to DSD is essentially worthless for the consumer. It's somewhat like recording to a DAT in 16/44 or 16/48, but having no way to listen to it unless you convert to mp3.
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well, .there are only a handful of recorders that record to DSD as an option..
Genex 9048, Tascam DV-RA1000,Tascam DS-D98. they all appear plenty professional....and I know plenty of professionals that use em..the genex is many thousands of dollars, and for my money...not worth it..as i am just looking for the DSD version of a tape machine to capture my mixdowns on....now what can be improved on are the DSD ADC Converters..but the recorder is just a capture device. they are all professional.
this is a way for more recording studios to integrate DSD(noone wants to pay 10,000 dollars for the genex beast), and for some of the average joe sixpacks to be made aware of the benefits of the format.. i hope it sticks this time.
it is very much worth it to me, so I am going to keep the capability as long as the format is around .the difference is really stunning...not going to bother with a multitrack DSD machine yet, but a 2track is definitely going to stay with me.
yeah, it is primarily for recording professionals who send work off to mastering houses with SACD capability. though this may help cause a paradigm shift.
So if I cannot edit DSD streams (cut off the parts before and after the interesting parts) nor process a DSD stream (EQ, compress, etc) if necessary, the device is `just` a glorified iRiver H120? (not to be negative, it will certainly work well and sound very good)
well, aside from the fact that DSD sounds so much better than PCM.. I mean, not even close. DSD is superior in that regard(to redbook pcm)
I share udovdh's perspective. I don't doubt it sounds far superior to PCM. But without the ability to edit the recording, or author SACD playback (and for me, I won't go back to media-based playback, so I'd want some sort of PC-based SACD playback), this is not the device for me. I hope the technology and products evolve over time. I'd love to make DSD recordings if they sound so darn good. But not until it becomes usable in a way that meets my requirements. I'm sure those who have different requirements, and for whom the current current technology and products addresses their requirements, will take advantage and use these devices.
Therein lies the problem - these devices appear to be much more "consumer" or "prosumer" rather than for recording professionals. If I'm sending my work to be mastered to SACD (for what is probably a large sum of money), I'd probably also be recording to DSD using much higher quality gear.
Until consumers can edit the DSD stream and author it to SACD and/or listen to it via some media-free transport, recording to DSD is essentially worthless for the consumer. It's somewhat like recording to a DAT in 16/44 or 16/48, but having no way to listen to it unless you convert to mp3.
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what do you mean??you mean transfers from one to the next?? or chaining together to get multitracks? sorry, im a big dummy, have to have things spelled out. :-\
I've not read up on these latest toys.
Is there any interface capabilities between any of the dsd units? such as genex->tascam, or, vice versa?? I know that tas.->tas is capable, but beyond that?
I'm truly clueless, so be easy on me.
I will say that DSD is tremendous sounding, breathtaking. But, as far as field recording goes, its dead in the water, until they get a quality portable rig, prosumer editing capability, and open usability for the mentioned reasons.
The tascam unit wasn't trustable enough for me to use as a live source recorder, so, its now seeing little use. Actually, its now residing in the bedroom system, unplugged.
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Can someone explain what the DSD format really is?
Why should this be better than 24 bit, 44 or 48kHz recording? Assuming we don't hear over 20kHz, why should we need to sample any more than 40kHz? I just don't get it.
Thanks,
Richard
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Can someone explain what the DSD format really is?
Why should this be better than 24 bit, 44 or 48kHz recording? Assuming we don't hear over 20kHz, why should we need to sample any more than 40kHz? I just don't get it.
Thanks,
Richard
impulse response.
much much better than the pcm stuff.
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Those wondering about software, this is from the press release:
"Korg's included AudioGate? software (Mac® and PC) can convert 1-bit recordings
into WAV and AIFF formats at various bit-rates (and vice versa) and offers real-
time conversion/playback of 1-bit files. The software can also perform essential
functions like removing DC offset, gain control, and fade in/out. Users can
easily transfer data from the internal hard drive to a computer via high speed USB
2.0 connection."
So there is at least some level of editing with the included software, but
appears to be limited at this time. I assume if you are distributing this as redbook
audio, you'd convert to pcm first and edit in your favorite daw. Need more
editing feature? Maybe we need to voice our opinions to the developers?
As for dsd->sacd, that is a valid point if you want to hear playback at as high
a quality possible and for distribution. For now, I guess we'd be left with play
back from the unit itself. Sort of akin to the pre cd-r days of DAT when we
played and traded right off the dat. These files are going to be large in DSD, but
not so large as to fit on a dvd5 for trades and archive - not to mention that we've
got affordable HD-DVD and blueray right 'round the corner.
As far as transfers goes, it uses USB 2.0. I assume it's bi-directional, so you
can dump to the computer, edit, dump back to the dsd. Would be super nice if you
can play dsd files from a computer through the USB connection directly on the
unit without dumping back and forth. This is almost an essential feature for our
purposes.
I imagine if the unit is successful, there will be a market for more affordable
prosumer software and hardware. Time will tell.
In the meantime, I still see this as a very sexy and affordable 24bit/192khz compact
recorder with a 20gb hardrive.
Mandoman
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Can someone explain what the DSD format really is?
Why should this be better than 24 bit, 44 or 48kHz recording? Assuming we don't hear over 20kHz, why should we need to sample any more than 40kHz? I just don't get it.
Thanks,
Richard
Less filtering or some mumbo jumbo for the technical reasons {I'm sure somebody else could say with authority - I've read the reasons but I would just be regurgitating them here} but I know I heard a very high end Linn system set up that had a DSD source and a 24/96k source hooked up to it and the DSD was a remarkably fresh and a different sound compared to the PCM. Like gauze lifted or putting your glasses on - a different sound from PCM audio. Hit a hi-fi shop or a trade show and check it out.
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I suggest reading this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Stream_Digital
and this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse-density_modulation
If you can remember your high school math, you should be able to work out the details in a short time. It is not easy to simplify it beyond the level of the second link. I should point out that it is difficult to directly compare the resolution of both techniques, and there has been a lot of arm waving by various sound engineers/scientists. Resolution is actually a complicated topic for any A/D system. I wrestle with these issues frequently (pun intended) at work.
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http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=58384.msg770219#msg770219
http://www.airshowmastering.com/sacdimg/SACD.pdf
Can someone explain what the DSD format really is?
Why should this be better than 24 bit, 44 or 48kHz recording? Assuming we don't hear over 20kHz, why should we need to sample any more than 40kHz? I just don't get it.
Thanks,
Richard
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if i read what m0ke asks, he is asking can you take the raw dsd written in the tascam and play it on a genex, or vice versa... all of these would load on the sonoma desk. etc...
i think a software player is a ways away, unfortunately.
i also think it would be a long time before we see the software sacd burning, unfortunately...
but i would love to see it...
and, teddy, arent there a number of uber-expensive converters available now...
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http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=58384.msg770219#msg770219
http://www.airshowmastering.com/sacdimg/SACD.pdf
BIG +T on that. I don't have time to discuss unfortunately. I have read that the high frequency resolution of DSD may be less than high end PCM (24 bit 192 khz). I lean towards DSD because in theory it is a step closer to digital analog from PCM.
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if i read what m0ke asks, he is asking can you take the raw dsd written in the tascam and play it on a genex, or vice versa... all of these would load on the sonoma desk. etc...
Yes, as far as I know...the raw DSDFF or whatever files should be able to be read on all of the recorders.
i think a software player is a ways away, unfortunately.i also think it would be a long time before we see the software sacd burning, unfortunately...
I dont think itll ever happen, personally. just a guess.
and, teddy, arent there a number of uber-expensive converters available now?
Yes, one of which I have. (http://www.superaudiocenter.com/images/mkIIemm) <<<mine is just like this, MKII..(The version is MKIV now)
Mytek has an 8ch DSD/PCM converter (http://www.mytekdigital.com/products/8x192adda.htm)
DcS is another DSD converter company (http://www.dcsltd.co.uk/index2.html)
EMM labs, founded by ed meitner, (who designed the 1st gens that I have (http://www.emmlabs.com/html/products/adc8/adc8.html)
Prism is another big player (http://www.prismsound.com/music_recording/studio_products.html)
Digital Audio denmark is a new one.. (http://www.digitalaudio.dk/ax24.htm)
Grimm Audio, NL (http://www.grimmaudio.com/ad1grimm.htm)
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the resolution isnt less.,but some power amps allegedly choke on the high frequency noise-shape noise spectrum and can cause great recordings to not sound os hot..
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=58384.msg770219#msg770219
http://www.airshowmastering.com/sacdimg/SACD.pdf
BIG +T on that. I don't have time to discuss unfortunately. I have read that the high frequency resolution of DSD may be less than high end PCM (24 bit 192 khz). I lean towards DSD because in theory it is a step closer to digital analog from PCM.
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meitner - those are the ones i have seen around...
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I like my r09 a LOT but, so far, the A/D does not seem to capture cymbal detail and decay as well as the 722.
So the 24/96, 24/192 and DSD on the small recorder could be moot if the signal path and A/D can't capture the detail. Specs aside, how GOOD will it sound.
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I like my r09 a LOT but, so far, the A/D does not seem to capture cymbal detail and decay as well as the 722.
So the 24/96, 24/192 and DSD on the small recorder could be moot if the signal path and A/D can't capture the detail. Specs aside, how GOOD will it sound.
my thinking as well. sounds like they're pretty good, though. I was wanting a 702, and just the other day I was wondering when the next gen stuff would be coming around. I guess I'll wait, finances depending. a huge christmas bounus might make it tough to wait, especially since dec is a three paycheck month anyway.
I don't really care about SACD authoring, I just need a computer interface and software (a foobar plugin ideally) that can play the files. Those in the know - How far do you think we are from having that? I would think that RME or similar company might be introducing something in the next year or two.
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This is wonderful news. DSD really is that much better! Am I misreading what the press blurbs are saying but don't the units come with software that will indeed playback the DSD encoded files? Store them on drives, playback through the PC until the software/hardware becomes available to create an SACD. The sound staging will be tremendous if thy have the front end worked out to any real level of quality.
Now you'll really have to figure out a way to get thousands of watts and big drivers in the house to appreciate it! ;D
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This is wonderful news. DSD really is that much better! Am I misreading what the press blurbs are saying but don't the units come with software that will indeed playback the DSD encoded files? Store them on drives, playback through the PC until the software/hardware becomes available to create an SACD. The sound staging will be tremendous if thy have the front end worked out to any real level of quality.
Now you'll really have to figure out a way to get thousands of watts and big drivers in the house to appreciate it! ;D
Yes it is..(well, than redbook...it depends if we are talking about DVD-A)..and it looks as if the software will indeed play em back..
so if you have a good Computer playback setup...there you go.
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I like my r09 a LOT but, so far, the A/D does not seem to capture cymbal detail and decay as well as the 722.
So the 24/96, 24/192 and DSD on the small recorder could be moot if the signal path and A/D can't capture the detail. Specs aside, how GOOD will it sound.
That's probably the best point...
You could have ultra high resolution of a not-so-great input signal. :hmmm:
Let's hope the rest of this thing sounds nice. Not to be pessemistic, but it is being made by Korg. Have they made any higher quality recorders etc. Like studio gear? The only products I've seen by them were some pretty consumer grade mixer/recorders and whatnot. Do they made any studio gear, or are they affiliated with any other companies?
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well hell, why use anything with a good signal path anyway..hell..the music is coming out of some busted ass peaveys from 1978 that were sent a signal by some behringer eurorack POS , DBX driverack, and a half blown ART multiverb.operated by some numbnuts with half a GED , a coke problem and a bench warrant.
tascam has a reputation for making less than stellar gear too, but the DVRA is a homerun. converters are great!
lets not put the cart before the horse here.. :)
DSD is a stellar format. this is a good thing.
I like my r09 a LOT but, so far, the A/D does not seem to capture cymbal detail and decay as well as the 722.
So the 24/96, 24/192 and DSD on the small recorder could be moot if the signal path and A/D can't capture the detail. Specs aside, how GOOD will it sound.
That's probably the best point...
You could have ultra high resolution of a not-so-great input signal. :hmmm:
Let's hope the rest of this thing sounds nice. Not to be pessemistic, but it is being made by Korg. Have they made any higher quality recorders etc. Like studio gear? The only products I've seen by them were some pretty consumer grade mixer/recorders and whatnot. Do they made any studio gear, or are they affiliated with any other companies?
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well hell, why use anything with a good signal path anyway..hell..the music is coming out of some busted ass peaveys from 1978 that were sent a signal by some behringer eurorack POS , DBX driverack, and a half blown ART multiverb.operated by some numbnuts with half a GED , a coke problem and a bench warrant.
tascam has a reputation for making less than stellar gear too, but the DVRA is a homerun. converters are great!
lets not put the cart before the horse here.. :)
DSD is a stellar format. this is a good thing.
I can't argue with that...
Tascam does have a history of making pro quality studio gear (DVRA's intended market), what can be said for Korg?
I hope it's a winner, I'd love to see DSD become much more common.
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the Korg Triton is awesome! :P
well...maybe itll be stellar!well hell, why use anything with a good signal path anyway..hell..the music is coming out of some busted ass peaveys from 1978 that were sent a signal by some behringer eurorack POS , DBX driverack, and a half blown ART multiverb.operated by some numbnuts with half a GED , a coke problem and a bench warrant.
tascam has a reputation for making less than stellar gear too, but the DVRA is a homerun. converters are great!
lets not put the cart before the horse here.. :)
DSD is a stellar format. this is a good thing.
I can't argue with that...
Tascam does have a history of making pro quality studio gear (DVRA's intended market), what can be said for Korg?
I hope it's a winner, I'd love to see DSD become much more common.
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the Korg Triton is awesome! :P
(http://www.musicgearreview.com/dbpix/BootsyCollins-l.jpg)
MIDI magic...
(http://www.tweakheadz.com/images/triton%20005.jpg)
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Jack DeJohnette was playing a newer version Korg Triton at the show I saw on Saturday night with Bill Frisell.. fwiw
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I have found that DSD recording can make the rest of the signal chain much less important. Most high quality gear is designed to make PCM sound better. A lot of money is spent trying to improve a PCM decimated signal, both in recording and in playback.
DSD does not provide the extended frequency response that 96kHz and 192 kHz PCM recordings are trying to capture. PCM wastes a lot of information trying to capture frequencies beyond those being played live or even reproduced in the studio. This is then further limited by the mics, playback system and limited human hearing range. DSD in contrast is providing hugely higher resolution in the range we all hear and with low cost mics and playback systems. There is at least twice as much information/resolution in the 20-20k range vs. PCM.
I hope we start seeing DO NOT CONVERT TO PCM warnings on downloads. Seems we are moving more towards PC based playback systems and the playback software is there. No real need for an alternative Audio SACD format we can afford to play on SACD players that seem to be phasing out. Now a consumer DVD player that would play DFF files would be welcome by me. I bet they would sell many more of those than SACD players!
Now I need to go integrate my PC into the main listening system and scale my gear way down while I can.
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so to do this ('puter playback) right, wont we need to see dsd capable cards (pci, etc)..?
a ways away, but 'puter dsd playback would be killer. foobar2k baby!!!! if any app (and programmer) can get it right it will be pp (the d00d that wrote fb2k)
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so to do this ('puter playback) right, wont we need to see dsd capable cards (pci, etc)..?
a ways away, but 'puter dsd playback would be killer. foobar2k baby!!!! if any app (and programmer) can get it right it will be pp (the d00d that wrote fb2k)
I'm reasonably certain the included software will play back the DFF files without any special card.
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Now I need to go integrate my PC into the main listening system and scale my gear way down while I can.
After hearing your Wilco recording, I think it's safe to say all you need is the Milab's!!
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DSD does not provide the extended frequency response that 96kHz and 192 kHz PCM recordings are trying to capture. PCM wastes a lot of information trying to capture frequencies beyond those being played live or even reproduced in the studio. This is then further limited by the mics, playback system and limited human hearing range. DSD in contrast is providing hugely higher resolution in the range we all hear and with low cost mics and playback systems. There is at least twice as much information/resolution in the 20-20k range vs. PCM.
Interesting. This is the general opinion? This could be one of the pro's for DSD.
I hope we start seeing DO NOT CONVERT TO PCM warnings on downloads. Seems we are moving more towards PC based playback systems and the playback software is there. No real need for an alternative Audio SACD format we can afford to play on SACD players that seem to be phasing out. Now a consumer DVD player that would play DFF files would be welcome by me. I bet they would sell many more of those than SACD players!
I think playback gear beyond a PC is a must. I can burn DVD-A's and if NAD fixes their issue the audio can be played back flawlessly.
DSD on the other hand is not yet a 'user' medium. I can not archive DSD to disk in a playable format (except PC) nor edit.
This is a con.
Are the file formats that the Korg units support for DSD proprietary and undocumented?
Now I need to go integrate my PC into the main listening system and scale my gear way down while I can.
Less is more?
mic -> batterybox -> DSD ? ???
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Less is more?
Less is ALWAYS more.. The less gear in the signal path to introduce colorations, the better.
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I have found that DSD recording can make the rest of the signal chain much less important. Most high quality gear is designed to make PCM sound better. A lot of money is spent trying to improve a PCM decimated signal, both in recording and in playback.
That's some heavy hype. Care to expand on it?
DSD does not provide the extended frequency response that 96kHz and 192 kHz PCM recordings are trying to capture. PCM wastes a lot of information trying to capture frequencies beyond those being played live or even reproduced in the studio. This is then further limited by the mics, playback system and limited human hearing range.
Your attempt to characterize 96khz as merely an effort to capture frequencies beyond human hearing seems disingenuous and inaccurate.
DSD in contrast is providing hugely higher resolution in the range we all hear and with low cost mics and playback systems.
Low cost playback = no DSD.
Seems we are moving more towards PC based playback systems and the playback software is there.
The DSD player software on your PC will convert to PCM before sending to the soundcard.
The only exception would be a native DSD card. Most soundcards talk PCM only.
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i will be on this like shit on Rusty's shorts!
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http://www.korg.co.jp/Product/DRS/MR-1000/ (http://www.korg.co.jp/Product/DRS/MR-1000/)
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I have found that DSD recording can make the rest of the signal chain much less important. Most high quality gear is designed to make PCM sound better. A lot of money is spent trying to improve a PCM decimated signal, both in recording and in playback.
That's some heavy hype. Care to expand on it?
I quickly realized this when I first started recording with DSD and the mics and preamp completely disappeared from the quality equation. The flavors of gear being used completely vanished from the recordings. The veil completely lifted.
DSD does not provide the extended frequency response that 96kHz and 192 kHz PCM recordings are trying to capture. PCM wastes a lot of information trying to capture frequencies beyond those being played live or even reproduced in the studio. This is then further limited by the mics, playback system and limited human hearing range.
Your attempt to characterize 96khz as merely an effort to capture frequencies beyond human hearing seems disingenuous and inaccurate.
I think the differences between capturing audio at 48kHz vs. 96kHz are fairly well documented. All the extra information/resolution is for capturing the frequencies above where 48kHz cuts them off which is around 21k-22k. That's why the file size double and you can hardly tell any difference at all.
DSD in contrast is providing hugely higher resolution in the range we all hear and with low cost mics and playback systems.
Low cost playback = no DSD.
Just hook up the DSD recorder/player to a low or mid-fi system and hear how good it can sound.
Seems we are moving more towards PC based playback systems and the playback software is there.
The DSD player software on your PC will convert to PCM before sending to the soundcard.
The only exception would be a native DSD card. Most soundcards talk PCM only.
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I quickly realized this when I first started recording with DSD and the mics and preamp completely disappeared from the quality equation. The flavors of gear being used completely vanished from the recordings. The veil completely lifted.
Interesting. I would have expected the exact opposite - that the greater fidelity would more accurately reveal the differences in gear. I guess the suggestion is that there really isn't much difference between the different gear we use. While I find that hard to believe, I'll have to reserve my opinion until I have a chance to try it out myself.
I think the differences between capturing audio at 48kHz vs. 96kHz are fairly well documented. All the extra information/resolution is for capturing the frequencies above where 48kHz cuts them off which is around 21k-22k. That's why the file size double and you can hardly tell any difference at all.
It's not just frequency, it's also time. A more accurate measuring of time produces a more accurate representation of the stereo image / soundstage.
Just hook up the DSD recorder/player to a low or mid-fi system and hear how good it can sound.
For the price at which some of these pieces are selling, it's darn tempting. Ultimately, I'd want pure PC-based DSD playback, but I'm awfully tempted to give it a go just for kicks in the mean time. :hmmm:
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I quickly realized this when I first started recording with DSD and the mics and preamp completely disappeared from the quality equation. The flavors of gear being used completely vanished from the recordings. The veil completely lifted.
And yet, mics and pre-amp are extremely important when recording analog. I call massively heavy BS!
Somehow, I don't expect to see everyone settling on CSB's into DSD.
I think the differences between capturing audio at 48kHz vs. 96kHz are fairly well documented. All the extra information/resolution is for capturing the frequencies above where 48kHz cuts them off which is around 21k-22k. That's why the file size double and you can hardly tell any difference at all.
Fairly well documented, YES. Some of us even understand it fairly well. But your post suggests a profound lack of understanding. And yet, you try and sound like an expert.
Just hook up the DSD recorder/player to a low or mid-fi system and hear how good it can sound.
I can put a live performer in the next room and send the live analog into a low or mid-fi system and it will still sound like a low or mid-fi system.
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DSD upsampling of PCM can also do a lot for your system. But real DSD does wonders more.
I probably am stretching to make the point by including low-fi gear. It's just that with DSD, the point of seriously diminishing returns occurs far sooner than with PCM. The brand of mics really do disappear when the veil over the music lifts. The preamp to a lesser extent but still very noticeable.
The 20-20k range of PCM at 24/48 is identical to 24/96 and 24/192. All the extra space utilized is solely for frequencies above 20k. I don't think this is profound misunderstanding. I certainly don't mean to sound like an expert. I may be completely wrong. But I do know how DSD sounds with live recording. And it makes sense to me.
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While the frequency response beliow 20KHz might be the same at sample rates above 48KHz and at higher bit depths, I would imagine the subtle detail, especially in the upper frequency ranges, would improve. And that would make the recording more transparent?
Paul
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The brand of mics really do disappear when the veil over the music lifts. The preamp to a lesser extent but still very noticeable.
That is completely contradictory to what you suggest - more detail, etc.
The 20-20k range of PCM at 24/48 is identical to 24/96 and 24/192.
You don't have the slightest clue what you are talking about.
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I quickly realized this when I first started recording with DSD and the mics and preamp completely disappeared from the quality equation. The flavors of gear being used completely vanished from the recordings. The veil completely lifted.
Interesting. I would have expected the exact opposite - that the greater fidelity would more accurately reveal the differences in gear. I guess the suggestion is that there really isn't much difference between the different gear we use. While I find that hard to believe, I'll have to reserve my opinion until I have a chance to try it out myself.
I think the differences between capturing audio at 48kHz vs. 96kHz are fairly well documented. All the extra information/resolution is for capturing the frequencies above where 48kHz cuts them off which is around 21k-22k. That's why the file size double and you can hardly tell any difference at all.
It's not just frequency, it's also time. A more accurate measuring of time produces a more accurate representation of the stereo image / soundstage.
Just hook up the DSD recorder/player to a low or mid-fi system and hear how good it can sound.
For the price at which some of these pieces are selling, it's darn tempting. Ultimately, I'd want pure PC-based DSD playback, but I'm awfully tempted to give it a go just for kicks in the mean time. :hmmm:
I dont know much about the math, but I know the comment in bold above to be true... this, IMO, is really all that matters..
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The brand of mics really do disappear when the veil over the music lifts. The preamp to a lesser extent but still very noticeable.
That is completely contradictory to what you suggest - more detail, etc.
The 20-20k range of PCM at 24/48 is identical to 24/96 and 24/192.
You don't have the slightest clue what you are talking about.
Two samples per frequency is two samples per frequency any way you cut it. Please show me something that suggests more than 2 samples per frequency for PCM, otherwise you seem to have no clue.
DSD provides greater resolution because it's more than 2 samples per frequency, hence greater detail which I have found makes the brand of mics and preamp far less important.
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The 20-20k range of PCM at 24/48 is identical to 24/96 and 24/192.
Two samples per frequency is two samples per frequency any way you cut it.
Could you try and defend your original point before changing the subject?
You said they were identical.. I posted an image of a waveform at 16 Khz that obviously shows the difference.
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fudge it folks...trust your ears.
mine tell me DSD kicks ass over PCM. thats all i need to know
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mine tell me DSD kicks ass over PCM.
Did you find, as MattH did to his ears, that the greater detail results in less of a noticeable difference between upstream components (mics, pre, ADC)? I would expect to hear greater differences, personally, but I've not had the pleasure of listening to DSD yet.
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fudge it folks...trust your ears.
mine tell me DSD kicks ass over PCM. thats all i need to know
yes, the science of it doesnt matter..LISTEN! DVD-A can compete if done right, but redbook ...nah, no way.
DXD is great too. It is a 24 bit signal sampled at 352.8hz.The most important advantage of DXD is that the signal is not a 1 bit model... because of this, the A-D convertors can use a higher order delta sigma modulator of 5 bit, for example. This drastically cuts the level of lower frequency noise, and improves the conversion quality.ANNNND.. Since the sample rate of DXD is 8 times 44.1kHz, the signal is easily up-sampled to DSD without any degradation. the new digital audio denmark converters are DXD capable..all these new formats..these HIGH RES formats are exciting! especially to us acoustic "purist" recording geeks!
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mine tell me DSD kicks ass over PCM.
Did you find, as MattH did to his ears, that the greater detail results in less of a noticeable difference between upstream components (mics, pre, ADC)? I would expect to hear greater differences, personally, but I've not had the pleasure of listening to DSD yet.
beats me, as the only DSD i've heard is studio released
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agreed.
I can't see any credit to the arguement that the method of digital encoding, be it DSD or PCM will have *any* impact on making the gear used to actualy do the recording in one way or another.
In fact, logic tells me that the higher the resolution,. the more of these little details will become presnet (details of mic type, location, stereo method, analog front end..etc).
as the resolution goes to hell, then things start to equal out.
for example....how much difference will you hear in a $200 recording rig vs. a $2k rig if you mastered at 128kbps MP3?
probably not much.
but, take those same rigs and record at 24/96 or DSD and then you'll notice.
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agreed.
I can't see any credit to the arguement that the method of digital encoding, be it DSD or PCM will have *any* impact on making the gear used to actualy do the recording in one way or another.
In fact, logic tells me that the higher the resolution,. the more of these little details will become presnet (details of mic type, location, stereo method, analog front end..etc).
as the resolution goes to hell, then things start to equal out.
for example....how much difference will you hear in a $200 recording rig vs. a $2k rig if you mastered at 128kbps MP3?
probably not much.
but, take those same rigs and record at 24/96 or DSD and then you'll notice.
location and method is still most of the equation.
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location and method is still most of the equation.
Guess I should sell my MGs and Schoeps and start using the C4's again.
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location and method is still most of the equation.
Of course. But what I think Nick and others are suggesting is that all else equal, higher resolution would better illustrate the sonic differences of the upstream gear, not make the gear sound more alike. That's my story and I'm sticking to it (until I actually make some DSD recordings and hear for myself).
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so to do this ('puter playback) right, wont we need to see dsd capable cards (pci, etc)..?
a ways away, but 'puter dsd playback would be killer. foobar2k baby!!!! if any app (and programmer) can get it right it will be pp (the d00d that wrote fb2k)
I'm reasonably certain the included software will play back the DFF files without any special card.
I'm reasonably certain that while this may be technically true, it won't actually be the un-converted DSD you hear.
Both MR recorders come with Korg’s innovative and powerful AudioGate™ software for Mac® and PC. AudioGate can convert 1-bit recordings into WAV and AIFF formats at various bit-rates (and vice versa) and offers real-time conversion and playback of 1-bit files.
so I'm thinking the software converts to pcm on the fly, then sends the pcm to your pcm-based soundcard. bummer.
since I'm home with a sinus infection on a saturday night, I did some digging. apparently at one time there were rumors of a DSD lynx card that would be supported by the sequoia platform. but I can't find anything recent. might be a couple years before we have a DSD-native computer playback platform
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Just curious - I noted in the KORG white papers claim that most 24bit AD chips actually convert the signal to a 1bit digital signal (using a Delta Sigma conversion) before actually converting this to 24bit PCM. So I figured I'dlook up the AD's in the V3 and 722 to see if they fit this pattern.
It does look like that both the AD in the 722/744 (CS5361) and V3 (PCM1804) do use a Delta Sigma stage and pass a serial stream to be filtered, etc into 24-bits.
TI PCM1804 - http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/pcm1804.html
CS5361 - http://crystal.com/en/pubs/proDatasheet/CS5361_F2.pdf
Note:
- the TI chip used in the V3 actually has the capibility to send out DSD signal.
- The CS5361 says it is multibit Delta Sigma - is this multibit mean 2 bits (1 per channel) or is there delta sigma conversion architectures that support multibit?
Would not the DSD signal be a purer (or more raw - less processed) form of this digitally representation (i.e. the original Delta Sigma converted Digital Stream) vs a filtered version of this stream into 24bit as KORG claims? Or is the KORG claim way off here?
I don't know enough about this stuff, but thought I'd bring it up as KORG makes a huge deal about this in their white paper and I want to see if any one else thinks there is any reason to look into this claim further.
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Pyramix, Soundblade, Sadie, and Sonic Studios are all computer DAWs that have DSD Cards..
so to do this ('puter playback) right, wont we need to see dsd capable cards (pci, etc)..?
a ways away, but 'puter dsd playback would be killer. foobar2k baby!!!! if any app (and programmer) can get it right it will be pp (the d00d that wrote fb2k)
I'm reasonably certain the included software will play back the DFF files without any special card.
I'm reasonably certain that while this may be technically true, it won't actually be the un-converted DSD you hear.
Both MR recorders come with Korg’s innovative and powerful AudioGate™ software for Mac® and PC. AudioGate can convert 1-bit recordings into WAV and AIFF formats at various bit-rates (and vice versa) and offers real-time conversion and playback of 1-bit files.
so I'm thinking the software converts to pcm on the fly, then sends the pcm to your pcm-based soundcard. bummer.
since I'm home with a sinus infection on a saturday night, I did some digging. apparently at one time there were rumors of a DSD lynx card that would be supported by the sequoia platform. but I can't find anything recent. might be a couple years before we have a DSD-native computer playback platform
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Apologies, but I think you knew what I meant.
=A Prosumer, semi-affordable, maybe-hopefully not tied to one particular piece of software playback platform
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Apologies, but I think you knew what I meant.
=A Prosumer, semi-affordable, maybe-hopefully not tied to one particualr piece of software playback platform
you mentioned Sequoia and Lynx in that statement..those are neither pro sumer nor affordable... ;)
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lynx audio cards top out at around $1k. a sequoia - lynx platform would still be pretty pricey, but at least would be a step down from the $5K+ options from the others you mentioned (pyramix, sadie...)
I simply meant to imply that that would be heading in the right direction, and in a couple years we might be there. Apologies if that was not clear.
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lynx audio cards top out at around $1k. a sequoia - lynx platform would still be pretty pricey, but at least would be a step down from the $5K+ options from the others you mentioned (pyramix, sadie...)
I simply meant to imply that that would be heading in the right direction, and in a couple years we might be there. Apologies if that was not clear.
the Lynx AES 16, Aurora, and others are way more than 1K..and Sequoia is about 3k (I have the AES 16, Sequoia, and Samplitude v9)
..truth of the matter is, any software that handles DSD is going to be expensive..it is complex and pricey to implement. youll see recorders all over, but editing and software playback..I dont think so.
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I really don't want to nitpick, and I agree with you for the most part. But... the AES 16 can be easily had for well under $1k, and the aurora isn't a computer interface, it's an AD/DA (albeit one with some amount of optional computer-controlled functionality).
I can't predict the future, but I'm certainly keeping my fingers crossed for a better range of cards and software. At the very least it seems there is a market for them.
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/joining thread
Great discussion...
not to reitterate all the different thoughts and concerns that have been expressed regarding viability and sonic quality (although, this is prolly sour grapes for some that have already invested in an expensive 24bit recorder), I think that as far as an archival medium, regardless of native playback options currently, DSD is a great step in the right direction digitally. Who's to say where the 'real' future of digital lies, 32bit, 64bit, 1bit HF; this is the marketing slant that Korg has taken with their statment of future-proof archival format; preservation and conversion to future formats makes HD DSD (1bit/5.6Mhz) awesome. Also the flexibility of being able to record DSD or 24bit PCM gives this unit (MR1000) an edge and allows those who have not made the switch to 24bit able to do so at a reasonable cost. Futhermore, with a DSD recorder on the market this, depending on it's success, will open the door for more development of products in this direction. I do find it funny that eventhough this allows for recording and archival in DSD, for real distribution the files have to be converted to PCM.
I'm skeptical that DSD is the perfect solution for the deficiencies of PCM but nothing is perfect and we can't have our cake and eat it too, but maybe we can have our cake and eat it later.
This link seems to explain the process best for me and the advantages of DSD. But trust your ears!
http://www.korg.com/mr/Future_Proof_Recording_Explained.pdf (http://www.korg.com/mr/Future_Proof_Recording_Explained.pdf)
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for real distribution, you could send the DSD RAW files to an SACD mastering house...but that is expensive, as it always will be..
/joining thread
Great discussion...
not to reitterate all the different thoughts and concerns that have been expressed regarding viability and sonic quality (although, this is prolly sour grapes for some that have already invested in an expensive 24bit recorder), I think that as far as an archival medium, regardless of native playback options currently, DSD is a great step in the right direction digitally. Who's to say where the 'real' future of digital lies, 32bit, 64bit, 1bit HF; this is the marketing slant that Korg has taken with their statment of future-proof archival format; preservation and conversion to future formats makes HD DSD (1bit/5.6Mhz) awesome. Also the flexibility of being able to record DSD or 24bit PCM gives this unit (MR1000) an edge and allows those who have not made the switch to 24bit able to do so at a reasonable cost. Futhermore, with a DSD recorder on the market this, depending on it's success, will open the door for more development of products in this direction. I do find it funny that eventhough this allows for recording and archival in DSD, for real distribution the files have to be converted to PCM.
I'm skeptical that DSD is the perfect solution for the deficiencies of PCM but nothing is perfect and we can't have our cake and eat it too, but maybe we can have our cake and eat it later.
This link seems to explain the process best for me and the advantages of DSD. But trust your ears!
http://www.korg.com/mr/Future_Proof_Recording_Explained.pdf (http://www.korg.com/mr/Future_Proof_Recording_Explained.pdf)
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Come on. Look who you are talking to here. ;D
I don't think that a 'mastering house' is a 'real' solution. Maybe I should have made myself more clear.
The closest thing out there would be the TASCAM DVRA-HD. If you could copy the DSDIFF files to the harddrive somehow and then transfer them to disc for playback then that would be a 'real' solution. I have tried to find out if the USB interface with the DVRA-HD can be used bi-directionally, and haven't had much luck. Those things are twice as much as what the MR-1000 would be, and just to play back the DSD files. I imagine that things will be lop-sided with DSD for a while until it gets rolling. Until then I don't mind to jump on board with the MR-1000 for obvious reasons.
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One word: betamax.
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yea, but it's like haveing a recorder that does both Beta and VHS. So what's to worry about?
Like someone else said, what do the opamps sound like? I have read that the MR1000 has a Burr-Brown 4202 ADC and CS4398 DAC, supposedly very good. It also has the flexibility to run an individual mic pre instead of the on-board mic pre.
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One word: betamax.
Nah...DSD is a much better format than betamax was, and the potential is greater.. the fact that DSD is far superior to redbook audio(SOME DVD-As can compete if done well) is what seals it for me. SACD might not stick around,but DSD will be around for a while, I feel.
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Come on. Look who you are talking to here. ;D
I don't think that a 'mastering house' is a 'real' solution. Maybe I should have made myself more clear.
The closest thing out there would be the TASCAM DVRA-HD. If you could copy the DSDIFF files to the harddrive somehow and then transfer them to disc for playback then that would be a 'real' solution. I have tried to find out if the USB interface with the DVRA-HD can be used bi-directionally, and haven't had much luck. Those things are twice as much as what the MR-1000 would be, and just to play back the DSD files. I imagine that things will be lop-sided with DSD for a while until it gets rolling. Until then I don't mind to jump on board with the MR-1000 for obvious reasons.
At least we will be able to play back DSD files on the Korg and transfer files back and forth from hard drives or data dvd's until playback of DSD files becomes easier on the computer and future players.
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To give you an idea. Just a rough calculation but 3hrs would be about 7.75GB in 2.8224MHz/1-bit DSD or roughly 7.5hrs on a 20GB HD.
Record times on 4.7GB DVD+rw media from the Tascam DVRA1000 manual :
109 mins 2.8224MHz/1-bit DSD
How is the math on that? Couldn't work it out..
Roel
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To give you an idea. Just a rough calculation but 3hrs would be about 7.75GB in 2.8224MHz/1-bit DSD or roughly 7.5hrs on a 20GB HD.
Record times on 4.7GB DVD+rw media from the Tascam DVRA1000 manual :
109 mins 2.8224MHz/1-bit DSD
How is the math on that? Couldn't work it out..
bits/s times seconds per hour
divided by bits per byte
gives bytes per hour
given the capacity per dvd you can work out the rest.
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Come on. Look who you are talking to here. ;D
I don't think that a 'mastering house' is a 'real' solution. Maybe I should have made myself more clear.
The closest thing out there would be the TASCAM DVRA-HD. If you could copy the DSDIFF files to the harddrive somehow and then transfer them to disc for playback then that would be a 'real' solution. I have tried to find out if the USB interface with the DVRA-HD can be used bi-directionally, and haven't had much luck. Those things are twice as much as what the MR-1000 would be, and just to play back the DSD files. I imagine that things will be lop-sided with DSD for a while until it gets rolling. Until then I don't mind to jump on board with the MR-1000 for obvious reasons.
At least we will be able to play back DSD files on the Korg and transfer files back and forth from hard drives or data dvd's until playback of DSD files becomes easier on the computer and future players.
Bring it on! I can't wait to ditch DAT.
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To give you an idea. Just a rough calculation but 3hrs would be about 7.75GB in 2.8224MHz/1-bit DSD or roughly 7.5hrs on a 20GB HD.
Record times on 4.7GB DVD+rw media from the Tascam DVRA1000 manual :
109 mins 2.8224MHz/1-bit DSD
How is the math on that? Couldn't work it out..
bits/s times seconds per hour
divided by bits per byte
gives bytes per hour
given the capacity per dvd you can work out the rest.
Ok here we go:
2.8224Mhz = 2,822,400 bits/s = 10,160,640,000 bits/hour = 1,270,080,000 bytes/hour
A dvd is about 4,700,000,000 bytes.. So that's 3.7 hours per DVD?
So I guess the 2.8224MHz is per channel? In that case it's 2,540,160,000 bytes/hour, which gives 1.85 hours per DVD.
That's more like it ;-)
So, on the internal 20GB hard disk, that would fit almost 8 hours. Not bad!
Roel
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If you run 5.6MHz, you would almost need to use a dual layer DVD to make physical media archival plausable. It would be around 54 minutes on a reg 4.7 GB DVD at that rate. That's a lot of data.
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To give you an idea. Just a rough calculation but 3hrs would be about 7.75GB in 2.8224MHz/1-bit DSD or roughly 7.5hrs on a 20GB HD.
Record times on 4.7GB DVD+rw media from the Tascam DVRA1000 manual :
109 mins 2.8224MHz/1-bit DSD
How is the math on that? Couldn't work it out..
bits/s times seconds per hour
divided by bits per byte
gives bytes per hour
given the capacity per dvd you can work out the rest.
Where did you read that ? LOL
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http://img3.harmony-central.com/Video/aes121/Korg_1-Bit_Recording_tutorial.wmv
http://img3.harmony-central.com/Video/aes121/Korg_MR-1_&_MR-1000.wmv
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(http://www.elevenshadows.com/sss/images/aes2006/korgmr-1.jpg)
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http://img3.harmony-central.com/Video/aes121/Korg_1-Bit_Recording_tutorial.wmv
http://img3.harmony-central.com/Video/aes121/Korg_MR-1_&_MR-1000.wmv
wow that MR1 is smalll... Me like
I wonder what if that Auto Level thing can be turned off.
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wouldn't be much of a recorder if it didn't have some gain control options
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Nice picture.. It's certainly the most sturdy-looking device so far.
Roel
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I like the Radion Shack gold mini plug the best.
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i'm excited for these products. I wonder if I can get one to review...
anyone have any connections at Korg?
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I'm curious regarding the cut off for file size and battery life. Would be nice if someone could field test these things.
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Thanks to all for some great food for thought...
These seem to be a viable alternative to 24bit with comperable if not better preformance. I can honestly say I have never heard a SACD played back on a quality system but I will in the next week..
If the software package coming with the gear will allow us to work on our recordings and not force the purchase of expensive Hardware/Software I would consider this as an option.. Also, if I can convert from 1bit back to 24/96 or 16/44.1 for the time being why not..
It will be interesting to see how this takes off and what the quality is from the first few 'pioneers' as these units begin shipping..
CQBert
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I started getting thoughts of sony DVD players (like the new dvp9100) that have the iLink output, and the higher end ES receivers w/the matching input...and pure DSD playback.
but alas..I know it aint possible, at the moment. But should there be software or a card that can send the signal (its only firewire), then that would be the shit.
I like DSD.
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A field recorder has quite a task to accomplish:
1. convert Analog signal voltage to Digital (resulting in a one-bit digital stream)
2. quantize the digital stream into multi-bit chunks based on your settings (16/48, 24/96 and so on)
3. package the chunks in WAV data format, and
4. stream the data onto the recording medium.
All this at close to real time!
It seems to me that if steps 2 and 3 could be done on your computer, which may have
greater processing power than your recorder, you might get more accurate results.
You certainly could experiment with the process of filtering and decimating the one-bit
data to produce the multi-bit data chunks. Because there is no requirement that the
post-production processing occur in real time, your computer could make more complex
calculations.
I can imagine a market developing for plug-in subroutines to perform different types of
conversions of one-bit data. It's analogous to the way you can purchase little software
modules that extend or simplify the functions of Photoshop.
I'm interested to see what Korg's new recorders will be like, especially including Korg's
PC software.
Flintstone
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Did you see that the tabletop unit can actually do 5.6mhz audio? I.e., 2x SA-CD quality. That's hot!
Do we actually need that resolution and whatever?
Of course it is nice. But for 'our' purpose?
Not at all.
But look how many guys fork out $2000 in a recorder. Then still feel the need to run a $1000 mic preamp in front of it. For a 2 channel Audience recording, mind ya.
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Do we actually need that resolution and whatever?
Of course it is nice. But for 'our' purpose?
Not at all.
But look how many guys fork out $2000 in a recorder. Then still feel the need to run a $1000 mic preamp in front of it. For a 2 channel Audience recording, mind ya.
That's what I was thinking.
Of course 120+ dB of SNR, THD etc is nice. Also the DSD features gives better resolution for higher frequencies, better 'placement' of signals, etc.
But we still need all that for the 20-20KHz band. Outside of that band is little to record and little to hear.
I am not bashing the Korgs (I would like to buy one myself!) but I am trying to get the devices into the right perspective w.r.t. features.
At this point in time I use a 400 euro recorder for 24/48, a batterybox that could be built for 10 euro in parts if you don't go for luxurious connections and use mics that can be had for $250 a pair. Enough quality for the circumstances I find myself in.
It's all about what we gain by upgrading a recorder.
That is my question, I guess.
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you gain DSD.
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you gain DSD.
Which doesn't mean much until the quality of the analog and a/d sections are known.
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I'm with Nick. It's not so much about the increased dynamic range as is how the bits are written in the audible range of hearing. I mean look at the frequency response curves for the mics that we use. They're not picking up 100kHz freqs. However, DSD does a much better job of actually 'rewriting' the analog wave than does PCM. It's this why I will be all over this thing. 16 bit PCM is great but is essentially the bare minimum of digital recording w/o suffering in the 20-20,000hz range.
As far as I know the ADC in these things are the Burr-Brown PCM4202 and the DAC is a Cirrus Logic CS4398. Not too shabby.
I just sent the Product Manager for Korg an email regarding file size limitations with these things. Hopefully there are none. I'll post his reply here (if he actually replies).
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lately I've been wondering about the MR-1, specifically whether or not you might be able to swap out the HD for a CF card and a CF>mini ata adapter. Presumably that would result in less heat along with a few oz less weight and better battery life.
I wonder where the HD is in that thing... could you rig a slot in the backside (ala gameboy cartridges) for interchanging cf cards?
I really hope these things are at least close to what korg is claiming them to be.
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The maximum recording time is 6 hours, regardless of format/file size. For the DSD formats the MR's automatically split the files as needed, in realtime.
Regards,
Jerry Kovarsky
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The maximum recording time is 6 hours, regardless of format/file size. For the DSD formats the MR's automatically split the files as needed, in realtime.
Hi Jerry,
You are from KORG, right? Good to see that somebody from KORG has found this excellent forum. Welcome!
Does the 6 hour maximum recording time also mean that the battery life is at least those 6 hours?
Thanks,
Roel
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The Harmony Central web page about the MR-1 identifies Jerry Kovarsky as
Korg's Senior Technology Product Manager . Welcome, Jerry!
The Korg web site has more information about the MR-1 and MR-100 here:
http://www.korg.com/gear/info.asp?A_PROD_NO=MR__Series
One-bit audio is descibed here:
http://www.korg.com/mr/Future_Proof_Recording_Explained.pdf
Jerry, how soon do you expect the MR-1 and MR-100 to be available for purchase?
Flintstone
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Its a good thing to see someone from the company in here.
we will field test these machines like no other!
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I have been following this discussion with great interest... I have one lingering question that I have not been able to find a difinitive answer for...
Will the software package that is included with the MR Series be able to render a SACD?
If not - is there a program available, for a reasonable price, that can?
Thanks for any input -
CQBert
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no, on all accounts at the moment.
the software will convert to PCM though, at any resolution from the looks of it.
so, think of these recorders as mastering devices only. you can offload the raw data as backup, but I believe it is only playable by these recorders or other DSD DAW type gear. Burning SACD is not possible currently, and unlikely from what "they" say. I think there will be a way to play these somehow...eventualy. Probably just PC based.
even still, i'm sure the DSD>24bit PCM files will be plenty pleasing.
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I will probably sit on the sidelines on this one then... wait to see how the first test go and sample some recordings.
It will be interesting to see how the conversions sound from 1bit to 24bit considering where the emphasis on placing the information is in the 1bit versions.
New toys - hopefully this one will become more than a bit bucket that requires extra work to get a viable listening meduim.
Thanks for the info...
I remain curious ^-^
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Jerry, glad to see that you looked up the forum! And we appreciate all you do.
I just got this reply from Jerry K. to some questions regarding the MR Series....
Hi Jack:
OK, just this once.
The MR's top out at 1 Gig per file. A 2.8 mHz stereo recording takes approx. 40 MB per stereo minute, and 5.6 mHz is double that. So you can get around 25 minutes continous with the MR-1.
Regards,
Jerry
P.S. Korg just decided to change the HD in the MR-1000 to 40 GB.
Followed by.....
Hi Jack:
I actually had my info wrong. While the "per file" size is limited to 2 GB, the MR automatically handles this and can keep recording. The maximum recording time for any of the formats is 6 hours! Sorry for the wrong assumption before.
regards,
Jerry
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so....
1) who's going to be the first to offer preorders?
2) Jerry/korg - care to comment on the possibility of swapping out the HD in the MR-1 for an adapter and a CF card? How much better battery life would that give?
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CF would be almost useless w/DSD recording...I would guess.
this is due to size limitations...
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CF Cards are now avaialable in 16 Gig and soon up to 32 gig... also, the vast majority of what we record is in the 2 hour length area - only festivals really generate the need for much more.
I would like to see an option available in the future if not right out of the gate..
CQBert
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Size limitations may not even be an issue with a 4GB CF card. If DSD occupies 40MB per stereo minute then a 4GB card would hold approximately 100 minutes of stereo audio. That would be half that for DXD.
CF would be a nice option to have.
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P.S. Korg just decided to change the HD in the MR-1000 to 40 GB.
This will be key to recording at WSD resolution. I really can't wait to hear something double the resolution of regular DSD.
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The MR-1 has no phantom power, no digital in, and analog in on 1/8". No matter what the A/D is like, this looks rather poor for location work. On the other hand the Zoom H4 has XLR ins with +48V, is significantly cheaper and available now.
It's not all about bits.
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It's not all about bits.
Actually, I'm guessing thats the reason most of us are interested in it.
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Looks like the MR-1 will have plug-in power available
http://www.korg.com/MR_Series/lrg_MR1ACC.jpg
The big brother MR-1000 does have phantom power and XLR inputs for pro mics.
http://www.korg.com/MR_Series/lrg_1000BK.jpg
Flintstone
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The MR-1 also has balanced inputs on TRS minijacks...a plus over the r-09
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Actually, I'm guessing thats the reason most of us are interested in it.
Fair enough, I'm not trying to diss an interest in an improved sampling method. My point, perhaps poorly made, is that we already have 24-bit portable recorders without anything like 24-bit resolution on the analogue inputs. Soon the MR-1 will offer better-than-that encoding with no-better-than-that inputs. The result will not be improved audio fidelity to the source. As an audio engineer I see a problem here.
I also really dislike interconnects like mini jack. You can never depend on them. A solid locking arrangement like XLR is preferred. Why not a physically smaller but similar stereo plug for mini recorders?
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Then get the MR-1000.
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Actually, I'm guessing thats the reason most of us are interested in it.
Fair enough, I'm not trying to diss an interest in an improved sampling method. My point, perhaps poorly made, is that we already have 24-bit portable recorders without anything like 24-bit resolution on the analogue inputs. Soon the MR-1 will offer better-than-that encoding with no-better-than-that inputs. The result will not be improved audio fidelity to the source. As an audio engineer I see a problem here.
I also really dislike interconnects like mini jack. You can never depend on them. A solid locking arrangement like XLR is preferred. Why not a physically smaller but similar stereo plug for mini recorders?
DSD is not really about higher SNR or extended frequency response which might be limited by the analog inputs or front end. To me it is just much smoother and natural sounding than PCM, even with a crappy front end.
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Exactly. If you look at the freq response curves for the mics that are generally used, they start to fall off around 20kHz, so the freq spectrum above that won't be accurately represented; however, as Matt says, the mannor in which the analog wave is reproduced digitally through DSD and WSD/DXD is more true to the analog than PCM (esp true at 1 bit 5.6MHz) making the recorded sound more natural with improved imaging.
From my limited understanding though, DSD has to employ a HP filter to eliminate some of the LF noise generated through the digital conversion.
-
Nick filled me in on this on the phone today (yea I'm behind the times). My solution is simple. I just, finally, bought my 722. For $1200.00 I'll pick up the large unit and run it in the Petrol bag (there is room for it) with the 722. Which ever works best, I'm keeping. The other one will be on yard sale and I'll take a loss. Its worth it to me.
-
me to. your loss will be our gain.
:)
I intend to get the little one. I dont need anything other than "line in", so im not concerned w/a large unit for the sole purpose of balanced input.
-
me to. your loss will be our gain.
:)
I intend to get the little one. I dont need anything other than "line in", so im not concerned w/a large unit for the sole purpose of balanced input.
I will be getting the large unit for WSD capability and the 40 GB drive.
-
Interesting reading:
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=19141&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30
http://gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php?t=90235
-
Interesting reading:
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=19141&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30
http://gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php?t=90235
+thanks for the link!
Audiogate sounds interesting, I hope it's compatible with my Tascam's files, that'd be awsome.
jerrythek
Product Manager, Korg
Oops - Pete had the models wrong - the MR-1000 will be more than that, I would say it'll be more like $1,199 - $1,299. The MR-1 should be around $799. we don't have final piricng yet - it'll be announced at the NAMM Show, and the products will ship in March-April, 2007.
Regards,
Jerry
-
Just in time for WsP spring tour! :realhappy:
-
Let's hope so...
-
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.korg.co.jp/Product/DRS/MR-1/&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=5&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DMR-1%2Bkorg%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG
Good link showing pictures and new spec info.
-
Looks as if they are selling in Japan already!
http://freesound.iua.upf.edu/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7511
-
Maybe there is a way to play back a DSD file without going through SACD mastering:
" Powered by SigmaTel's 8-channel High Definition Audio codec, multimedia PCs like Sony's new VAIO PC Type R, Type H and Type V models introduced for the Japanese market last month and the VAIO RC series and selected models in the RB series now available in the US, provide music enthusiasts and home studio users with the world's first consumer PC audio chip capable of recording and playback in the Sony DSD format"
http://ir.sigmatel.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=146091&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=760631&highlight=
Sept. 26, 2005
Sony calls this Vaio feature the "Sound Reality Processor." Hmmmm.
Flintstone
-
interesting...
I could see one of those in my future.
-
Neither of the MR-series recorders will offer a digital out of any kind (yet). Only analog, XLR outs on the MR-1000 and a line out type on the MR-1. They both have a USB 2.0 connector to transfer files to and from a computer using Korg's Audiogate software. Now if 'they' would only make an affordable true DSD sound card this might be able to be accomplished.
I still haven't been able to determine if you could send a DSD file from the recorder (or computer) via USB to the DVRA1000 HD (the new one with the hard drive) and they burn it using the tascam deck. This is the only option that I can think might work for playing the native DSD files over a playback system w/o using the recorder. :(
-
Maybe there is a way to play back a DSD file without going through SACD mastering:
" Powered by SigmaTel's 8-channel High Definition Audio codec, multimedia PCs like Sony's new VAIO PC Type R, Type H and Type V models introduced for the Japanese market last month and the VAIO RC series and selected models in the RB series now available in the US, provide music enthusiasts and home studio users with the world's first consumer PC audio chip capable of recording and playback in the Sony DSD format"
http://ir.sigmatel.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=146091&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=760631&highlight=
Sept. 26, 2005
Sony calls this Vaio feature the "Sound Reality Processor." Hmmmm.
Flintstone
This ASIO technology is just a new type of driver that allows the software to interface with the hardware (soundcard) in a more efficient and direct manner. This would allow for true multchannel (surround) 24-bit digital processing via consumer PC sound cards. This is a step in the right direction allowing PCs to handle high volumes of digital audio data. Hopefully this will open the door from multichannel 24-bit PCM I/O to native DSD I/O (as can only be had on very expensive consoles). Hope is a long way from reality though. Sony does it again with proprietary BS.
-
thanks!
the usb on the dvra1000 is a computer interface only. when in usb mode, it's no longer a recorder, but, rather, a transfer device like any other, so its not likely to work.
+
Moke, I think that the new DVRA1000HD will allow for files (DSD) to be transfered to the 60GB hard drive, but I'm not sure if they can be burned onto disc from there.
-
I just got a reply from Jerry K. at Korg regarding the production/delivery schedule for the MR units...
Hi JC:
Production has started and things seem to be going fine.
Stock will arrive in the US to be on time for March in store, for sure.
regards,
Jerry
DSD for Spring Panic!
-
I would assume that you don't need the software to transfer the files only to edit and convert to other formats.
-
In stock - now selling.
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.ishibashi.co.jp/webshop/recording-pa/korg/mr-1.htm&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dishibashi%2Bmr-1000%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG
approx $472.85 (ex S&H).
http://www.ishibashi-music.com/
Looks like they also ship worldwide!
-
that seems really cheap
-
interesting.
if anyone can figure out how to order....
lmk
-
You can email them in English...that's what I just did.
-
report your findings back to the group, scout.
:)
-
Will report back how much S&H is when I get a reply from them.
You can purchase the big one on Jan 27th...That's when it is released in Japan. Don't know how much they charge for S&H, though.
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.ishibashi.co.jp/webshop/recording-pa/korg/mr-1000.htm&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dishibashi%2Bmr-1000%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG
The large one is approx $979.69 available later this month from Japan (retail for $1,200 - $1,300 in US in March)
The small one seems to be a good buy for approx $472.85 available NOW from Japan (retail for $800 in US in March) ;D
I've got a friend coming back from Tokyo on Monday...should have given her $500 so that she can pop into the Tokyo store for me (they have a branch in Tokyo).. :P
-
from their specs page:
* Note:
Copy protection is introduced in the software of this product.
In order for you to use this product, the computer which equips the USB port is necessary.
Hmmmmmm. can anyone explain what the story is there?
If there's no difference between the japanese one and the american one (warranty?) I might just order one too. got a huge run of shows in march I was hoping to have this for.
-
Too bad the small unit has a built in battery.. Any news on the larger recorder's availability?
I still have a small shining hope that removing the HD will free up enough space for a row of AAs and a flash card. doesn't look likely, but fingers crossed.
-
Too bad the small unit has a built in battery.. Any news on the larger recorder's availability?
I still have a small shining hope that removing the HD will free up enough space for a row of AAs and a flash card. doesn't look likely, but fingers crossed.
what good is a flash card going to do when you are recording 4gb per hour?
well, other than 60min of recording time per 4gb chip
-
what good is a flash card going to do when you are recording 4gb per hour?
well, other than 60min of recording time per 4gb chip
16 gig CF cards are already ~$550. that'd give 4 hours of recording time, enough for a show. in another year, I bet the price will have come down enough that many tapers will have a 16 gig CF card...
-
dont get me wrong...i'd love to see it.
but CF based DSD recorders dont exist yet.
:)
-
what good is a flash card going to do when you are recording 4gb per hour?
well, other than 60min of recording time per 4gb chip
16 gig CF cards are already ~$550. that'd give 4 hours of recording time, enough for a show. in another year, I bet the price will have come down enough that many tapers will have a 16 gig CF card...
well, unless I have a math error, that's not quite right. According to the info posted earlier in the thread:
Record times on 4.7GB DVD+rw media from the Tascam DVRA1000 manual :
Record time Bit-Rate
290 mins 44.1/24 PCM
267 mins 48/24 PCM
144 mins 88.2/24 PCM
133 mins 96/24 PCM
109 mins 2.8224MHz/1-bit DSD
72 mins 176.4/24 PCM
66 mins 192/24 PCM
that's a little over 23 mins per gig. an 8 gig card (pretty cheap already) would be over three hours of record time. even allowing for the whole 1000000000 B = 1GB thing (guessing that would put formatted capacity at ~7.5 GB, or 173 mins), it's still more than I'll ever need in a single evening. WDSD would be another story though.
-
ok..
still, it doesn't exist. I'm banking on the hdd working.
:)
-
i am pretty sure shaggy is back stateside...
-
You can purchase the big one on Jan 27th...That's when it is released in Japan. Don't know how much they charge for S&H, though.
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.ishibashi.co.jp/webshop/recording-pa/korg/mr-1000.htm&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dishibashi%2Bmr-1000%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG
As a decisive solution of last master form of the music production which continues diversification, in addition, it is the proposition whose is new from [korugu] as a super high sound quality field recorder. MR- 10,001 - Supporting Bit Professional Mobile Recorder, 24 bits 192kHz PCM in addition to 1 bits 5.6448MHz which exceed 1 bits 2.8224MHz DSD. The highest music, being able to record even to the impression which instant of field gives, [korugu] MR-1000. 2.8224MHz DSD and to 24 bits 192kHz PCM and the like using “AudioGate” at 1 bits 5.6448MHz master sound recording and according to use, it converts. Very this, [korugu] lectures is the way of new last master form.
:yack:
-
what, you no like dat english?
-
I emailed them the other day about trying to buy one from their web site.
Looks like I can send all my info via email, which I suppose I shouldn't do, but it is tempting.
Here is the response I got:
---------------------------
Thank you for your e-mail,
this is Midori from Ishibashi WEB SHOP.
We ship internationally, to anywhere in the world.
We basically accept order by e-mail.
I attached an explanation of the payment method below the quotation I
made for the KORG MR-1.
Please see the quotation below.
KORG MR-1------------------------------------- 56,953JPY
Shipping fee (EMS, insurance included)--------- 3,500JPY
===============================================================
Total ---------------------------------- 60,453JPY
60,453 Japanese Yen = 501.808 US Dollars as of Wednesday, January 17,
2007.
This will not be the actual amount you will be issued,
the currency rate will set on the day your payment settles at your
Credit card company or bank.
Once the item is shipped, it will take about one week for the item to
arrive.
I will e-mail you the tracking number for EMS on shipping day
To place your order, please complete your payment.
The payment methods we accept are:
1)Credit cards (VISA/ Mastercard/ American Express)
2)Wire transfers(additional handling fee of 3,000JPY)
1)If you would like to use your Credit card for making your payment,
please e-mail me the following information:
1.Your name,
2.Address,
3.Phone Number,
4.Card holder's name (as it appears on the card),
5.Expiration date of the card.
Also for security, please send your credit card number from our secured
website below.
---> https://www.ishibashi.co.jp/webshop/card/card.htm
2) If you would like to make a Wire Transfer, a handling fee of 3,000JPY
will be added to your total payment.
Please send the payment to:
Bank name: The Mitsubishi-Tokyo-UFJ Bank
Branch name: Kanda Branch
Bank address: 2-5-1, Kanda Ogawa-machi, Chiyoda-ku,
Tokyo, JAPAN 101-0052
Our account number: 184101
Account name: Ishibashi Music corporation
SWIFT code: BOTKJPJT
Japanese sales tax does not apply to international sales.
However, you may be charged import tax from your customs.
Unfortunately, we are cannot be sure how much you will be charged.
For further information, please contact the local customs at your end.
I apologize for such inconvenience.
If you have any questions, please let me know.
Thank you very much for contacting Ishibashi WEB SHOP!!
Best regards,
Midori Akiyama
International Sales Agent/Ishibashi WEB SHOP
Ishibashi WEB SHOP
Ishibashi Music Corporation
E-mail---> web-shop@ishibashi.co.jp
Web Site Domestic---> http://www.ishibashi.co.jp/
Web Site Intl.---> http://www.ishibashi-music.com
USED WEB Site---> http://www.ishibashi.co.jp/u_box/
Telephone number: +81-3-3291-7090
Fax: +81-3-3291-7099
-
Dose any one know when you can get them in the us.
-Brian
-
things that make you go "Mmmmmm"
:)
-
things that make you go "Mmmmmm"
:)
No doubt. I really REALLY want one of these. What do you suppose the import tax wwould be? Anything at all?
-
not sure, but i'm going to start poking around and see whats what and if a secure order can be placed, i'm probably going to take the bait.
-
not sure, but i'm going to start poking around and see whats what and if a secure order can be placed, i'm probably going to take the bait.
Do it, do it!
-
Dose any one know when you can get them in the us.
-Brian
In US you can get it in March if there is no back order and it will retail for $800...
Sometimes you do not need to pay import tax.. depending on your luck.
I'm tempted... also I know all credit card online purchases are protected.
-
Any tapers on here from Japan?
Edit: Just saw your post Tim.
-
NAMM 2007 starts today. Hopefully, KORG and Jerry K. will release some more details regarding US release of the MR recorders.
-
Here's a document that explains the TIC Tariff and Tax information on Import items. Here is the link to Chapter 85 which handles: Electrical machinery and equipment and parts thereof; sound recorders and reproducers, television image and sound recorders and reproducers, and parts and accessories of such articles.
http://hotdocs.usitc.gov/docs/tata/hts/bychapter/0700c85.pdf (http://hotdocs.usitc.gov/docs/tata/hts/bychapter/0700c85.pdf)
Check out page 29.
Looks like this would fall under heading 8519.81.30 or 8519.81.40. Either way it looks like there is no import tax. I would make sure to double check that though. Also, it would fall under an informal declaration for personal use (some may use for commercial, which changes the $ value ceiling).
Also read this...
http://www.customs.gov/xp/cgov/import/infrequent_importer_info/internet_purchases.xml#ImportingProcess (http://www.customs.gov/xp/cgov/import/infrequent_importer_info/internet_purchases.xml#ImportingProcess)
Also, the prices in red on the ishibashi website include a 5% consumption tax that people outside Japan don't have to pay. And the JPY falling compared to the USD, good time to buy.
-
Looks like MF has preorder for these @ $700 and $1200 respectively...
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/document?doc_id=101710
So now we know MAP price. Hope some taperssection friendly
retailers on this board can beat that price...
-
fwiw..
I have not heard back from japan yet.
still waiting for someone to drop me a line.
-
I would wait and get one from a US company. I was thinking that if it arrived DOA or had a problem that shipping back overseas would be a royal PITA. That's cool MF is doing their presale for these already. I'm gonna put in for the preorder for the MR-1000. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that they aren't junk. Concept and reality.
-
Zing!
-
I resemble that remark!
anyway, the web shop pulled the plug on me. and I quote:
Dear Nick,
Thank you for your inquiry.
This is Rachel from Ishibashi WEB SHOP.
I am sorry to inform you that we are unable to ship new Korg products
outside of Japan. I apologize for any inconvenience this may cause you.
We are allowed to sell second-hand Korg products, however. If you are
interested in checking out our used item listing, please click the
following link:
http://www.ishibashi.co.jp/u_box/
Again, please accept my apologies. If you have any further questions or
concerns, feel free to ask me. Thank you for your understanding!
Regards,
Rachel Maurer / International Sales Agent
Ishibashi WEB SHOP
-
I just preordered the MR-1000 ($1199 + free ship) from MF this morning. Their website said that they are scheduled to receive the units (including the MR-1) on 2/14/07. I'll post pics/review when I get it. I love buying new toys!
-
I resemble that remark!
anyway, the web shop pulled the plug on me. and I quote:
Dear Nick,
Thank you for your inquiry.
This is Rachel from Ishibashi WEB SHOP.
I am sorry to inform you that we are unable to ship new Korg products
outside of Japan. I apologize for any inconvenience this may cause you.
We are allowed to sell second-hand Korg products, however. If you are
interested in checking out our used item listing, please click the
following link:
http://www.ishibashi.co.jp/u_box/
Again, please accept my apologies. If you have any further questions or
concerns, feel free to ask me. Thank you for your understanding!
Regards,
Rachel Maurer / International Sales Agent
Ishibashi WEB SHOP
Funny Rachel from the International Sales Agent did not want to sell new Korg products to you and said they do not sell it to buyers outside Japan because their website states international orders welcome.
I actually got an email from another person from the International sales office and they said including shipping for a new MR-1 to US will be 59,953 Yen which is $496.36. 1 week to arrive from Japan.
My credit card protect my online purchases.... I'll decide this weekend what to do..
-
Looks like MF has bumped back the MR-1000 arrival date to 2/22/07. Here we go.... ::)
-
Looks like MF has bumped back the MR-1000 arrival date to 2/22/07. Here we go.... ::)
I was told by an online retailer who claimed to have the MR-1 in stock, this:
Korg MR-1
Released, Jan 19th, 2007
Available March, 2007
Here we go indeed... ::)
-
Any guesses on first MR-1 seed? :P
I was thinking of seeding some existing dsd shows in anticipation of first arrivals. Anyone interested?
-
Any guesses on first MR-1 seed? :P
I was thinking of seeding some existing dsd shows in anticipation of first arrivals. Anyone interested?
The real question is, do any exist and, if so, how will ya play them in DSD form? I know My SACD burner has been busted for 7 years ;)
-
Any guesses on first MR-1 seed? :P
I was thinking of seeding some existing dsd shows in anticipation of first arrivals. Anyone interested?
The real question is, do any exist and, if so, how will ya play them in DSD form? I know My SACD burner has been busted for 7 years ;)
Existing dsd recordings made on a DV-RA1000 ( I have a dozen or so) should be playable on the MR-1 and MR-1000
-
I've been following this thread with as much curiousity as the rest of you. The price on the MR-1 is very tempting.
-
Any guesses on first MR-1 seed? :P
I was thinking of seeding some existing dsd shows in anticipation of first arrivals. Anyone interested?
I meant seeded as PCM.. I can't do anything with DSD and don't plan to.. I stopped playing music from discs in 2001 and don't plan on doing that again. Especially to embrace a very tightly controlled proprietary format. If the original master is DSD and it is converted to PCM, that is fine. But for me any interest in these devices comes down to what that PCM quality will be.
-
To me, the PCM quality is not going to be any different than most other PCM recorders. I am most interested in the mic preamp quality in the MR-1000 (ultra high quality for an all in one box) and line in dsd recording on both. I am not expecting the mic pre to be very good on the MR-1.
-
me neither. On ether of them, in fact.
but the mr1's balanced mini's will be awesome for line level stuff. I'm going to make a nice little low-profile molded set of plugs for it.
-
me neither. On ether of them, in fact.
but the mr1's balanced mini's will be awesome for line level stuff. I'm going to make a nice little low-profile molded set of plugs for it.
I'll take a set if you start making them to sell.
-
keep me in mind, I will be making them.
:)
-
keep me in mind, I will be making them.
:)
Remember, I'm not only the priesident, I'm also a client! (http://thumb16.webshots.net/s/thumb3/7/27/33/34372733gloFOC_th.jpg)
(Actually I am a client Nick built me some damn fine cables!)
-
:)
-
To me, the PCM quality is not going to be any different than most other PCM recorders. I am most interested in the mic preamp quality in the MR-1000 (ultra high quality for an all in one box) and line in dsd recording on both. I am not expecting the mic pre to be very good on the MR-1.
Well, maybe... but a guy from Japan that is using it wrote this to me when I asked him:
"Be careful. MR-1 is a kind of a shock. Its mic-preamp section generates almost NO noise. Even the R-09, famous for having silent line-input, makes slight white noise background. At first, I took it wrong for malfunction. Second shock is that the headphone amp is a little noisy. Korg put most of the cost into recording operations. They cut budget for playing. Completely different philosophy from SONY MD. The biggest shock comes from the sound it takes. It records EVERYTHING. At 1-bit mode, signal loss isn't likely to occer so easily, hence, it records almost every signal that the microphone produces. When you listen to it by just playbacking, you may not be so surprised because the output circuit is rather poor, but once you transfer it to your pc, and listen with headphones, you....
At least I was very surprised. Even now I can't believe people can get such a recorder for less than 1000 usdollar."
Some actual sounds from the MR-1:
http://freesound.iua.upf.edu/samplesViewSingle.php?id=30226
http://freesound.iua.upf.edu/usersViewSingle.php?id=21830
-
Interesting....have to try my one out this weekend. I need to get a balance Y cable to record line-in. Anyone recommend one?
-
To me, the PCM quality is not going to be any different than most other PCM recorders.
And yet I find the A/D's of various recorders to be very different when run line-in from the same mics and pre-amps. Oh how I wish my r09 had the detail of my 722. So I wouldn't assume for a second that the a/d or pre quality will be excellent but I hope it is..
-
To me, the PCM quality is not going to be any different than most other PCM recorders. I am most interested in the mic preamp quality in the MR-1000 (ultra high quality for an all in one box) and line in dsd recording on both. I am not expecting the mic pre to be very good on the MR-1.
Well, maybe... but a guy from Japan that is using it wrote this to me when I asked him:
"Be careful. MR-1 is a kind of a shock. Its mic-preamp section generates almost NO noise. Even the R-09, famous for having silent line-input, makes slight white noise background. At first, I took it wrong for malfunction. Second shock is that the headphone amp is a little noisy. Korg put most of the cost into recording operations. They cut budget for playing. Completely different philosophy from SONY MD. The biggest shock comes from the sound it takes. It records EVERYTHING. At 1-bit mode, signal loss isn't likely to occer so easily, hence, it records almost every signal that the microphone produces. When you listen to it by just playbacking, you may not be so surprised because the output circuit is rather poor, but once you transfer it to your pc, and listen with headphones, you....
At least I was very surprised. Even now I can't believe people can get such a recorder for less than 1000 usdollar."
Some actual sounds from the MR-1:
http://freesound.iua.upf.edu/samplesViewSingle.php?id=30226
http://freesound.iua.upf.edu/usersViewSingle.php?id=21830
Does this seem odd to anyone else? "once you convert it to PCM to play on your pc...it sounds better than the native DSD on played from the recorder"
-
Does this seem odd to anyone else? "once you convert it to PCM to play on your pc...it sounds better than the native DSD on played from the recorder"
To me, the PCM quality is not going to be any different than most other PCM recorders. I am most interested in the mic preamp quality in the MR-1000 (ultra high quality for an all in one box) and line in dsd recording on both. I am not expecting the mic pre to be very good on the MR-1.
Well, maybe... but a guy from Japan that is using it wrote this to me when I asked him:
"Be careful. MR-1 is a kind of a shock. Its mic-preamp section generates almost NO noise. Even the R-09, famous for having silent line-input, makes slight white noise background. At first, I took it wrong for malfunction. Second shock is that the headphone amp is a little noisy. Korg put most of the cost into recording operations. They cut budget for playing. Completely different philosophy from SONY MD. The biggest shock comes from the sound it takes. It records EVERYTHING. At 1-bit mode, signal loss isn't likely to occer so easily, hence, it records almost every signal that the microphone produces. When you listen to it by just playbacking, you may not be so surprised because the output circuit is rather poor, but once you transfer it to your pc, and listen with headphones, you....
At least I was very surprised. Even now I can't believe people can get such a recorder for less than 1000 usdollar."
Some actual sounds from the MR-1:
http://freesound.iua.upf.edu/samplesViewSingle.php?id=30226
http://freesound.iua.upf.edu/usersViewSingle.php?id=21830
-
I can see myself hacking one of those Tascam jobies so that I can have a DSD jukebox.
:)
-
i wrote to the guys in japan and including shipping, here is what i got back:
Dear Neil,
Thank you for your inquiry.
This is Rachel from Ishibashi WEB SHOP.
I am afraid that the price your friend was quoted is not correct for the MR-1000 -- perhaps he was quoted for a different product? The price of the MR-1000 alone is nearly double what you were told, and then shipping is added on top of that.
Please see the following quote for the price of the item plus shipping and handling fees in Japanese yen (JPY).
Korg
MR-1000 ---112,381
Shipping and Handling to USA ---6,000
__________________________________________________
Total ---118,381
Please note that the shipping and handling fees include the cost of insurance, which will cover any damage, defects, or loss that may occur.
We use EMS for international shipping. It takes approximately one week for the item to arrive once we have shipped it.
We accept payments by credit card (Visa, American Express, or Mastercard) or by wire transfers via bank. However, if you choose to pay by wire transfer, there is an additional 3,000 yen fee required for processing, and wire transfers must be made in Japanese yen (JPY).
If you have any further questions or concerns, please don't hesitate to ask! Thank you for contacting Ishibashi WEB SHOP!
Regards,
Rachel Maurer / International Sales Agent Ishibashi WEB SHOP Ishibashi Music Corporation http://www.ishibashi.co.jp/ U-BOX - http://www.ishibashi.co.jp/u_box/ Telephone number: 81-3-3291-7090
Fax: 81-3-3291-7099
that makes it about 1001.00 dollars US.
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To me, the PCM quality is not going to be any different than most other PCM recorders.
And yet I find the A/D's of various recorders to be very different when run line-in from the same mics and pre-amps. Oh how I wish my r09 had the detail of my 722. So I wouldn't assume for a second that the a/d or pre quality will be excellent but I hope it is..
Burr-Brown PCM4202 should sound damn fine for PCM recordings, certainly as good as the 722. And I expect the preamp in the MR-1000 to sound simlar or better than the 722 preamp.
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To me, the PCM quality is not going to be any different than most other PCM recorders.
And yet I find the A/D's of various recorders to be very different when run line-in from the same mics and pre-amps. Oh how I wish my r09 had the detail of my 722. So I wouldn't assume for a second that the a/d or pre quality will be excellent but I hope it is..
Burr-Brown PCM4202 should sound damn fine for PCM recordings, certainly as good as the 722. And I expect the preamp in the MR-1000 to sound simlar or better than the 722 preamp.
Those are absurd assumptions considering this is still vaporware.
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Vaporware that should ship by the end of next week ;)
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Vaporware that should ship by the end of next week ;)
Can't wait to get my vaporware and confirm these absurd assumptions.
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Vaporware that should ship by the end of next week ;)
I think the US release has been delayed to end of Feb...
http://www.americanmusical.com/item.aspx?i=KOR%20MR1&src=D0407FG0HAMS0000&cm_mmc=Froogle-_-SearchEngine-_-Feed-_-KOR%20MR1
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I have called MF regarding the MR-1000 and they are still slated to receive their first shipment of the decks on 2/14/07. They are also receiveing a second shipment on 2/22/07. Also MF said that they require a 48 hour turn around time for sending out the units once they receive them. From what I can gather, I am in on the first shipment, hopefully. Every other website shows the 2/22/07 date and I have heard some other conflicting dates, but as far as I can tell it should happen by the end of the month.
Also I am trying to find out what type/model the 12V DC power connector is on the back of the MR-1000 so as I can make a power cable for an SLA battery system instead of using the 8AA battery bay. If anyone knows, please post or pm me.
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Also I am trying to find out what type/model the 12V DC power connector is on the back of the MR-1000 so as I can make a power cable for an SLA battery system instead of using the 8AA battery bay. If anyone knows, please post or pm me.
I only know about the MR-1, so if anyone needs info on the MR-1 feel free to ask.
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Also I am trying to find out what type/model the 12V DC power connector is on the back of the MR-1000 so as I can make a power cable for an SLA battery system instead of using the 8AA battery bay. If anyone knows, please post or pm me.
I only know about the MR-1, so if anyone needs info on the MR-1 feel free to ask.
Simon,
What is the internal battery life taping at DSD resolution? Does it autostart new files or shut down at some file size limit? It it makes just one big file, how do you export that to a PC?
Oh, yeah. How does it sound?
Jeff
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Hey Jeff... DSD just over 2 hrs when it's fully charged (longer for 16/44.1). Unlike the MT where there is a battery icon showing charge status, it's difficult to see if the MR-1 is fully charged or not because the monitor is off while charging. So if you plan to record longer shows best to have external power (5V). Yes it auto-start files which is good. You can export the file via the USB into the pc program they provided - haven't tried that yet. I still need to get cables (1/8 male to XLR female - I need 2 of these) so that I can record via line-in. Via mic-in the sound is quite amazing (was shocked how this little thing can capture sound so clear)!
Going to Radio Shack or Best Buy today (hopefully if I have time) to get my cables to try out line-in. Got a concert on Saturday (Garrick Ohlsson's recital), which I plan to test this recorder out (using the V3 as the preamp). I'll be running a digital out signal from my V3 to my MT at the same time...so it will be interesting to hear the difference. If everything goes as planned I'll mail you both copies and I wont tell you which recording is from which recorder ;)
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Are line-in and mic-in both through two 1/8" plugs, or is mic-in via a stereo 1/8"?
How are the levels meters on the MR-1?
Damn, will I be able to wait on this or am I going to order from Tokyo?
Jeff (apprentice gear slut)
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Are line-in and mic-in both through two 1/8" plugs, or is mic-in via a stereo 1/8"?
How are the levels meters on the MR-1?
Damn, will I be able to wait on this or am I going to order from Tokyo?
Jeff (apprentice gear slut)
Both line-in and mic-in goes through the 2X 1/8" sockets (L&R)...there's a switch, which allows you to pick which option you want. Levels are great!!!! Very sensitive and detailed - I prefer them more than the MT and the R-09.
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whats the distance from whole to whole w/those mini's?
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Are line-in and mic-in both through two 1/8" plugs, or is mic-in via a stereo 1/8"?
How are the levels meters on the MR-1?
Damn, will I be able to wait on this or am I going to order from Tokyo?
Jeff (apprentice gear slut)
Both line-in and mic-in goes through the 2X 1/8" sockets (L&R)...there's a switch, which allows you to pick which option you want. Levels are great!!!! Very sensitive and detailed - I prefer them more than the MT and the R-09.
ooow, ooow, ooow, I'm beginning to hyperventilate. Gimmee one, gimmee two, I want an MR1000 too.
Jeff
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The MR-1 looks interesting. I might try inporting one.
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whats the distance from whole to whole w/those mini's?
Center of one hole to the center of the other hole is 12 mm.
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only 2 hours?!?!
damn....gotta replace that HD with a flash card, which would use less power and free up more space for a bigger battery.
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It looks as if it's VERY easy to open this thing up (unlike the MT). There are 4 cross screws on each corner of the recorder....This thing looks/feels fragile so I better leave it to the experts in this forum to open it up. It's also extremly light (maybe because it's made of plastic). If you look at it on-line you might think it is made of silvery metal so it's misleading...it's actually made of plastic.
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The MR-1 looks interesting. I might try inporting one.
I'm assuming you're in the US. If you can wait a week, it will be available here.
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It looks as if it's VERY easy to open this thing up (unlike the MT)
opening the mt is very easy, you need only your fingers!
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Scyue,
Is it true that the MR-1's level controls are buried in a menu
rather than controllable using a knob or slider? If true, that
would make it difficult to adjust levels on the fly.
Flintstone
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Yes you need to set the vol when you enter the REC level option after pressing the REC button. You set the L&R levels indivially. So it is not a 2 sec process.
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The Owners Manual for the MR-1000 is finally up on the web. This should answer some questions.
MR-1000 Owners Manual (http://www.korg.com/downloads/pdf/MR1000_OM_E2.pdf)
here's the one for the MR-1
MR-1 Owners Manual (http://www.korg.com/downloads/pdf/MR1_OM_E2.pdf)
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MR-1000
Interesting how you have to use TRS for line in and XLR for mic in. Also, the High and Low sensitivity switch apparently only affects line in. It switches between consumer and pro reference levels.
This seems different than most field recorders that have a switch between mic and line in. I hope this is a good sign for a very high quality mic pre.
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me too
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Alright I'm confused. ???
I understand that XLR has to be used with phantom power. And mics are low output devices.
However, if running a seperate mic pre in front of this thing, is the manual saying it not take the XLR as line in, only TRS?
From reading this I still don't think that you have to use TRS as line in but as the manual states "you can use balanced or unbalanced 1/4" TRS phone jacks to make connections (for line in)". But you can't use the TRS for mic in.
Am I thinking right on this or do you guys read this as TRS only for line in?
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I would think either works. balanced is balanced, no matter how its connected.
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Thanks for the manual links..
Does the 1000 really not have a Hold function to lock everything??
It would be a huge drag if line-in is TRS only and not XLR. I just don't see myself using (and making!) TRS cables for my pre-amps.
Be nice if it showed actual battery voltage rather than just a battery low LED.. Actual volts display is one of the more constantly used features on the 7xx. From the manual it sounds like the korg does not differentiate between battery types like the r09 does.. So it could give premature low battery warnings with nimh.
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I would think either works. balanced is balanced, no matter how its connected.
XLR in will be like XLR in on an external mic preamp. TRS in will be like XLR in on a recorder that does not have a mic preamp like most studio recorders. This is distinctly different than a recorder that uses the same connections and a switch for line/mic in which might be a simple 20dB pad. The phantom switch will only affect XLR in and can be turned off if using an external phanton supply. Running a full line level signal into the XLR's will add far too much gain and result in serious clipping. Truely separate gain stages for mic and line in is what we want, right?
I guess I will be buying some XLR-F -> TRS and TRS -> TRS cables soon to run my external pre's.
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Truely separate gain stages for mic and line in is what we want, right?
Absolutely. But not via a cheezy-ass TRS connector! A simple internal switch would have been Just Fine.
Anyone determined how much gain is available in line and mic modes?
Don't most soundboards and mixers have 1/4" TRS line input connectors and XLR connectors for mic in?
Looks like mic in adds 28-60 dB gain and line in adds up to 20 dB unbalanced and 30 dB balanced, if I read the specs correctly. Therefore, it appears to be a problem to run with phantom power at less than 28 dB gain which could pose a problem for loud concert taping with certain mics.
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Looks like mic in adds 28-60 dB gain and line in adds up to 20 dB unbalanced and 30 dB balanced, if I read the specs correctly. Therefore, it appears to be a problem to run with phantom power at less than 28 dB gain which could pose a problem for loud concert taping with certain mics.
I don't think that is right but vicodin is preventing me from coming up with what seems right ;)
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Truely separate gain stages for mic and line in is what we want, right?
Absolutely. But not via a cheezy-ass TRS connector! A simple internal switch would have been Just Fine.
Anyone determined how much gain is available in line and mic modes?
Don't most soundboards and mixers have 1/4" TRS line input connectors and XLR connectors for mic in?
Looks like mic in adds 28-60 dB gain and line in adds up to 20 dB unbalanced and 30 dB balanced, if I read the specs correctly. Therefore, it appears to be a problem to run with phantom power at less than 28 dB gain which could pose a problem for loud concert taping with certain mics.
I'm not sure that your thinking on this is correct but I'm not 100% sure either. The spec sheet says -60dBu to -28dBu for XLR Line in (nominal) with -16dBu (maximum), not 28 to 60dBu. That means at full trim the input gain would be -60dBu which is pretty low, so at high SPL you can increase the trim enough to get a handle on it. I checked specs on the HD-P2 and it has something like ~-48dBu (max trim) to ~14dBu (min trim) and this is sufficient from what I gather. The specs on the MR1000 don't distinguish between line-in and mic-in or the high and low gain setting switch. I might email KORGs tech support and see if I can get a better answer on this. Am I thinking correctly here???
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Truely separate gain stages for mic and line in is what we want, right?
Absolutely. But not via a cheezy-ass TRS connector! A simple internal switch would have been Just Fine.
Anyone determined how much gain is available in line and mic modes?
Don't most soundboards and mixers have 1/4" TRS line input connectors and XLR connectors for mic in?
Looks like mic in adds 28-60 dB gain and line in adds up to 20 dB unbalanced and 30 dB balanced, if I read the specs correctly. Therefore, it appears to be a problem to run with phantom power at less than 28 dB gain which could pose a problem for loud concert taping with certain mics.
I'm not sure that your thinking on this is correct but I'm not 100% sure either. The spec sheet says -60dBu to -28dBu for XLR Line in (nominal) with -16dBu (maximum), not 28 to 60dBu. That means at full trim the input gain would be -60dBu which is pretty low, so at high SPL you can increase the trim enough to get a handle on it. I checked specs on the HD-P2 and it has something like ~-48dBu (max trim) to ~14dBu (min trim) and this is sufficient from what I gather. The specs on the MR1000 don't distinguish between line-in and mic-in or the high and low gain setting switch. I might email KORGs tech support and see if I can get a better answer on this. Am I thinking correctly here???
It's fairly clear to me that XLR is mic in and TRS is line in, just like so many mixing boards out there. See the specs for each type of connector to confirm this for yourself.
INPUT L,R
Nominal level -60 dBu...-28 dBu, XLR (balanced)
-26 dBu...+4 dBu, 1/4"TRS phone (balanced)
-16 dBV...-6 dBV, 1/4"TRS phone (unbalanced)
I think Maximum level specs refer to maximum input lever before overload, not the range of gain adjustment.
Also, according to the manual, the input sensitivity switch only impacts line in and not mic in.
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[INPUT L,R
Nominal level -60 dBu...-28 dBu, XLR (balanced)
-26 dBu...+4 dBu, 1/4"TRS phone (balanced)
-16 dBV...-6 dBV, 1/4"TRS phone (unbalanced)
I think Maximum level specs refer to maximum input lever before overload, not the range of gain adjustment.
Also, according to the manual, the input sensitivity switch only impacts line in and not mic in.
Matt is right here, I think. They are not giving the gain range available for those inputs, they are giving the min and max signal range for those inputs (presumably to not overload and to be able to reach 0dbFS without going over). Oops, these are nominal levels, not max levels
A dbu is a voltage reference, based on the ratio of the voltage level to a reference level of 0.775 volts (I forget the historical reasons for this). A dbV is a voltage reference, with the voltage level referenced to 1volt.
So for the XLR example -60dbu = 20 * Log (input voltage/0.775volts). So -60dbu = 0.775mV minimum input
The max XLR input level is -28 = 20 * Log (input voltage/0.775v) = 31mV
Based on -26dbu to +4dbu, the input range for the balanced TRS inputs works out to be 38.75mV to 1.6V (1600mV).
Bottom line, you'll need to use the TRS inputs for line-in. Anyway, that aside, it's too bad it can't take a hotter signal line in. The V3 puts out ~25dbu when running 0dbFS on the digital side, which is way more than this can take. The MT can only take 3.2dbu max according to Guy Sonic, so this isn't too much more at max +4dbu.
Edit: skip this -- these are nominal levels, see my post a few below regarding info on max levels.
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So I am assuming the MR-1 can't take the V3 analog out either?
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So I am assuming the MR-1 can't take the V3 analog out either?
Don't know, I haven't checked out the specs yet. I just realized though, that max level of 31mv on the XLR inputs is really low, unless I'm screwing something up in my calculations.
My mics, and a lot of others have sensitivities of 14.5mV/Pascal, which is a sound level of 94db. For each 6db increase in sound pressure, you'll double that as a mic signal. So 100db SPL is 29mv signal coming from the mic, 106db is 58mv, 112db SPL is 116mv signal level.
You'll easily get 112db SPLs at a concert, so I guess this means you won't be able to use this recorder without having a -20db mic pad engaged? ???
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So I am assuming the MR-1 can't take the V3 analog out either?
According to the manual, the MR-1000 takes a max level of -16dBu for XLR, +16dBu for TRS and +6dBV for TS(unbalanced). The MR-1 takes max level of Line +6dBu and Mic -27dBV
For concert PA taping, it looks like phantom power boxes will be needed to run condenser mics on both units and you must run line in to avoid attenuators. Oh well.
Looks good for running a separate preamp. I think most folks turn the V3 gain down anyway when running it as a preamp only.
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Okay, so I want to run the V3 digi out > JB3/MT AND analog out to the MR-1. Will this be possible?
I'll need to crank the gain if running preamp and AD, so I am guessing this might not work out like I had hoped.
I've got one on order and now I'm wondering if I should cancel and wait...
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Okay, so I want to run the V3 digi out > JB3/MT AND analog out to the MR-1. Will this be possible?
I'll need to crank the gain if running preamp and AD, so I am guessing this might not work out like I had hoped.
I've got one on order and now I'm wondering if I should cancel and wait...
That will be a problem with most any recorder. On the other hand, probably no need to use the V3 digi out if you are going DSD.
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So I am assuming the MR-1 can't take the V3 analog out either?
Don't know, I haven't checked out the specs yet. I just realized though, that max level of 31mv on the XLR inputs is really low, unless I'm screwing something up in my calculations.
My mics, and a lot of others have sensitivities of 14.5mV/Pascal, which is a sound level of 94db. For each 6db increase in sound pressure, you'll double that as a mic signal. So 100db SPL is 29mv signal coming from the mic, 106db is 58mv, 112db SPL is 116mv signal level.
You'll easily get 112db SPLs at a concert, so I guess this means you won't be able to use this recorder without having a -20db mic pad engaged? ???
were you refering to this for the max level for the xlr connectors? XLR-3-31 type
Don't alot of machines use this type connector?
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Okay, so I want to run the V3 digi out > JB3/MT AND analog out to the MR-1. Will this be possible?
I'll need to crank the gain if running preamp and AD, so I am guessing this might not work out like I had hoped.
I've got one on order and now I'm wondering if I should cancel and wait...
That will be a problem with most any recorder. On the other hand, probably no need to use the V3 digi out if you are going DSD.
The digi out would be my back up, until I get this new fangled DSD working.
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So I am assuming the MR-1 can't take the V3 analog out either?
Don't know, I haven't checked out the specs yet. I just realized though, that max level of 31mv on the XLR inputs is really low, unless I'm screwing something up in my calculations.
My mics, and a lot of others have sensitivities of 14.5mV/Pascal, which is a sound level of 94db. For each 6db increase in sound pressure, you'll double that as a mic signal. So 100db SPL is 29mv signal coming from the mic, 106db is 58mv, 112db SPL is 116mv signal level.
You'll easily get 112db SPLs at a concert, so I guess this means you won't be able to use this recorder without having a -20db mic pad engaged? ???
were you refering to this for the max level for the xlr connectors? XLR-3-31 type
Don't alot of machines use this type connector?
I was going off of Matt's post, but I wasn't picking up on the specs being listed for nominal. Looking at the manual for max input specs things look better. -16dbu max on the XLRs, +16dbu max on the TRS, +6dbV max unbalanced on the TRS.
This works out to 124mv max on the XLRs, 4.9V on the TRS, and 2V unbalanced on the TRS (8dbu).
So things look pretty good on the TRS inputs for the MR-1000, but still not so great on the XLR inputs. I still wouldn't risk running mics into the MR-1000's XLR inputs without having the -10db mic attenuation engaged on the mic.
Oh, and this is just the max level for the XLR inputs on the MR-1000, it is not the max level XLR connectors can take in general.
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Okay, so I want to run the V3 digi out > JB3/MT AND analog out to the MR-1. Will this be possible?
I'll need to crank the gain if running preamp and AD, so I am guessing this might not work out like I had hoped.
I've got one on order and now I'm wondering if I should cancel and wait...
That will be a problem with most any recorder. On the other hand, probably no need to use the V3 digi out if you are going DSD.
The AD2k+ can take the full output level of the V3, I think taking unbalanced inputs the R-09 comes fairly close. Anyway, looks like the MR-1 can accept +6dbV on its line input, which is unbalanced. This works out to +8dbu. The V3 at 0dbFS (running full tilt), puts out 19dbu (unbalanced). So you'd need to either attenuate the V3 analog outputs by 11-12dbu to feed the MR-1, or you'd need to run the V3 at ~-12dbFS max when running it with a digital out.
BTW, I'm guessing you might want to be running the V3 digital out not for the MR-1, but to use the V3 as a pre for the MR-1, while at the same time running the V3 digital out to a pcm recorder (eg, MT) for backup.
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So the v3 gain range is +10 to +70 dB. 722 in mic mode is 10-55dB (can take +10dBu max). 722 in line mode is -6 to 18dB (can take +26dBu max). Can anyone equate the MR-1000 gain in those terms?
Loudest show I've recorded with schoeps > 722 was dino jr and I ran 14dB of gain. I think that was running pretty hot. Had I wanted to peak at -12, I'd probably would have needed about 10dB less.
Edit: Kinda wondering about situations where you start in mic mode but then find you have too much gain and need to switch to line mode and change cables.... I don't understand the gain structure well enough to know at what levels that will occur.
Just have to add.. What IDIOT design team and mgmt at Korg decided that pro level signals weren't needed on the big MR-1000? That isn't a minor detail. If they screwed something that basic up, what else have they blown?
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Just have to add.. What IDIOT design team and mgmt at Korg decided that pro level signals weren't needed on the big MR-1000? That isn't a minor detail. If they screwed something that basic up, what else have they blown?
Well, nominal line level for pro gear is +4dbu (and nominal consumer line level is -10dbV). So in that regard, the max +16dbu input isn't too bad, though it would be nice if it could take 20-26dbu.
I can't believe how low the max mic level input is though. That's pretty pathetic you can't use the mic inputs without using engaging the mic attenuator circuit on your mics (assuming they have them -- forget using Neumann km184s directly into the MR-1000).
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Okay, so I want to run the V3 digi out > JB3/MT AND analog out to the MR-1. Will this be possible?
I'll need to crank the gain if running preamp and AD, so I am guessing this might not work out like I had hoped.
I've got one on order and now I'm wondering if I should cancel and wait...
You'll be fine...I tried it out last night.
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Just have to add.. What IDIOT design team and mgmt at Korg decided that pro level signals weren't needed on the big MR-1000? That isn't a minor detail. If they screwed something that basic up, what else have they blown?
Well, nominal line level for pro gear is +4dbu (and nominal consumer line level is -10dbV). So in that regard, the max +16dbu input isn't too bad, though it would be nice if it could take 20-26dbu.
I can't believe how low the max mic level input is though. That's pretty pathetic you can't use the mic inputs without using engaging the mic attenuator circuit on your mics (assuming they have them -- forget using Neumann km184s directly into the MR-1000).
If this is actually the case, this would be quite the dissapointment. I was hoping to try just that 184>MR1000 but 184/170 > V2 > MR1000 should work out it seems. I have emailed tech support to try to get an answer on what the exact gain specs are for the XLR v TRS connectors at the 'high' and 'low' gain settings. The way the manual reads, it doesn't differentiate between the high and low set switch. Also asked about the mic in. I'll post what they have to say.
The guy I've been talking to over at KORG's tech support has already sent me a DC plug + cable end from a bad adapter Free Of Charge so I can make a SLA power solution for the MR-1000. That's pretty nice if you ask me. He also told me that KORG is working on a portable power solution for the MR1 and the MR1000.
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Dang, all this mic pre talking is making me nervous. I'm coming from a MT and I don't want
to go through more "can't handle hot signals hell that is the MT". I just decided mr-1000 over
the mr-1 and to get one as soon as they are available (from what I hear, any day now).
Looks like now I'll have to wait. :(
However, I don't think anyone should get their hopes up on the mic pre's - it IS korg we're
talking here afterall. What I hope to hear is, 'pleasantly surprised'.
What we are all expecting is the A>D to kick ass. If the mic pres are decent (hopefully better),
than hopefully we'll be in good shape for the next 'standard' all in one box. If not, looks like
r4, fr2le or 671 for me...
In the meantime, I'm ordering an LSD2 and Presonus Firebox to tide my G.A.S. over until we
get some solid reviews on these units.
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If this is actually the case, this would be quite the dissapointment. I was hoping to try just that 184>MR1000 but 184/170 > V2 > MR1000 should work out it seems.
I would think adding the v2 will only make things worse.. It adds a min of 10 dB of gain on top of what is already coming from the mics.. And actually, I think it adds 20 and the trim pot down at 0 attenuates 10 of that 20. Maybe you could flip some internal jumpers in the v2 to attenuate but....
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If this is actually the case, this would be quite the dissapointment. I was hoping to try just that 184>MR1000 but 184/170 > V2 > MR1000 should work out it seems.
I would think adding the v2 will only make things worse.. It adds a min of 10 dB of gain on top of what is already coming from the mics.. And actually, I think it adds 20 and the trim pot down at 0 attenuates 10 of that 20. Maybe you could flip some internal jumpers in the v2 to attenuate but....
??? I'm not following. The line input isn't too bad at all, it's the max mic input levels that are really constraining. By using the V2, you can go line-in to the MR-1000 which will be able to accept +16dbu. With mic-in, esp with km184s with no mic attenuator circuit, you'd have to use some sort of attenuator cable -- not a good option when you're running phantom power.
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If this is actually the case, this would be quite the dissapointment. I was hoping to try just that 184>MR1000 but 184/170 > V2 > MR1000 should work out it seems.
I would think adding the v2 will only make things worse.. It adds a min of 10 dB of gain on top of what is already coming from the mics.. And actually, I think it adds 20 and the trim pot down at 0 attenuates 10 of that 20. Maybe you could flip some internal jumpers in the v2 to attenuate but....
Maybe working through the numbers helps:
If the km184 has a sensitivity of 15mv/Pa (I think it does), then it will produce a signal level of 240mV when it is recording in an environment that has a max SPL of 118db (a little on the high side, but about correct, typical shows easily hit 112db).
This 240mV corresponds to ~-10dbu -- so it overloads the max mic input level of -16dbu. Fed into a V2 with a gain of 20db, the 240mV mic signal level gets amplified to +10dbu. Which is 6dbu less than the max line in of +16dbu.
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Just have to add.. What IDIOT design team and mgmt at Korg decided that pro level signals weren't needed on the big MR-1000? That isn't a minor detail. If they screwed something that basic up, what else have they blown?
Well, nominal line level for pro gear is +4dbu (and nominal consumer line level is -10dbV). So in that regard, the max +16dbu input isn't too bad, though it would be nice if it could take 20-26dbu.
I can't believe how low the max mic level input is though. That's pretty pathetic you can't use the mic inputs without using engaging the mic attenuator circuit on your mics (assuming they have them -- forget using Neumann km184s directly into the MR-1000).
He also told me that KORG is working on a portable power solution for the MR1 and the MR1000.
Funny they now know their recorders need a better power solution...surprised they never thought about this power problem during the production/design process... I already purchased a high capacity (5400mAh) 5V external battery for my MR-1.
http://www.gpsforless.co.uk/product_details.php?id=4157
Including shipping to US it's just under $100 which should run my recorder for over 12 hrs (if my calculation is correct). Curious what battery they will come up with.
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From the R4 specs:
Nominal Input Level (Variable) Line Level: -33-- +4 dBu
MIC Level: -60-- -23 dBu
I run a stock R4 and it can't handle much over +10 but that's still a healthy output coming from my preamp. Not sure I would want to run the preamp much higher so +16 works great for me.
For mics requiring phantom power, the R4 adds a minimum of 23 dB gain vs. the MR-1000's 26 dB or 28 dB.
I suppose an ACM mod will be necessary to make it an all in one box.
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Here we go, Musicians Friend had them listed as coming in yesterday, now their web site says they arrive today...
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Hmm, now I'm starting to think a two-piece setup, in which case an mr-1 might
be better. For just a tad more than an mr-1000, I could do mini-mp+mr-1 and
be guaranteed an excellent preamp. I'm still assuming A>D is going to rock.
So my setup would be LSD2>Mini-MP>MR-1. Argh, but I'd really prefer a one piece
setup. Argh, decisions, decisions...
I see Nick's already got the MR-1 cables for sale for this setup in retail space :-)
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you and I will be running the same rig.
all in one...schmall in one
:)
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Here we go, Musicians Friend had them listed as coming in yesterday, now their web site says they arrive today...
Strange, as this is still wrong. We are still waiting for our first shipment of MR-1 to arrive, they're scheduled for early next week, then we have to start shipping them out. So I think end of next week would be the earliest.
MR-1000 is schedule to arrive mid-later March.
We're contacting MF to correct this. I hope this info helps - keep up your enthusiam, it's great to see.
Regards,
Jerry Kovarsky
korg Guy
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Here we go, Musicians Friend had them listed as coming in yesterday, now their web site says they arrive today...
Strange, as this is still wrong. We are still waiting for our first shipment of MR-1 to arrive, they're scheduled for early next week, then we have to start shipping them out. So I think end of next week would be the earliest.
MR-1000 is schedule to arrive mid-later March.
We're contacting MR to correct this. I hope this info helps - keep up your enthusiam, it's great to see.
Regards,
Jerry Kovarsky
korg Guy
Thanks for the update. Musicians Friend has them listed as arriving today 2/16. Everytime I call they say they are getting them today, no what day it is.
I've got some shows coming up so I hope this thing gets here soon!
thanks again for the update.
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Thanks for the update Jerry! So you work for Korg? When you say 'we', can I assume
you mean when Korg expects to receive units from manufacturing, than you still
have to deliver to dealers? Nice to hear from the horses mouth on availability.
As an FYI to the forum, never ever trust MF's 'expected' dates - it has been my experience
they are almost always wrong.
Sucks we have to wait longer, I was really hoping to have my hands on one next week.
Oh well, at least this gives me time to decide between the mr-1 and mr-1000...
Mandoman
Here we go, Musicians Friend had them listed as coming in yesterday, now their web site says they arrive today...
Strange, as this is still wrong. We are still waiting for our first shipment of MR-1 to arrive, they're scheduled for early next week, then we have to start shipping them out. So I think end of next week would be the earliest.
MR-1000 is schedule to arrive mid-later March.
We're contacting MF to correct this. I hope this info helps - keep up your enthusiam, it's great to see.
Regards,
Jerry Kovarsky
korg Guy
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The MR-1 supposedly landed at JFK yesterday and were waiting to go through customs. SP expects to have mine next week.
Jeff
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Sam Ash has March 1 as the expected ship on thier site - here's hoping they come through! I had an order with Musician's Friend, hoping for the 2/15 date as well. When I called up yesterday (you have to call them, don't rely ont he website), the guy said a.) that they HAD recieved some on 2/15 but not enough to fill all the orders - so not mine, and b.) the new ship date for my order was 3/15. We'll see if Sam Ash can do a better job of order fulfilment - woulda really liked to have the unit for a friend's show I'm taping tomorrow, but oh well...
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The MR-1 supposedly landed at JFK yesterday and were waiting to go through customs. SP expects to have mine next week.
Jeff
Customs? Any ideas where they were shipped from?
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japan
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If you want to hear a sample recording of MR-1, check this torrent on Dime.
Jet At Budokan Tokyo Japan Feb 9th 2007
http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=134492
The seeder wants to respect the tapers’ wish to be discreet. But the lineage of this recording is:
DPA>Power Module>MR-1
Recorded far way back on the floor, the sound quality is simply mind-blowing!! Once I thought I should get a Zoom H4. Now I am seriously thinking about getting this one.
Sorry I was wrong about the recording position. The taper recorded close to the stage, in front of the right stack. Pretty good recording.
Please do not ask the seeder for any info nor post a question on Dime board. He does not want to be bothered.
Koichi
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Sam Ash has March 1 as the expected ship on thier site - here's hoping they come through! I had an order with Musician's Friend, hoping for the 2/15 date as well. When I called up yesterday (you have to call them, don't rely ont he website), the guy said a.) that they HAD recieved some on 2/15 but not enough to fill all the orders - so not mine, and b.) the new ship date for my order was 3/15. We'll see if Sam Ash can do a better job of order fulfilment - woulda really liked to have the unit for a friend's show I'm taping tomorrow, but oh well...
Musicans Friend is so full of crap. I called twice today. One time they said they got a shipment in and already shipped out the all of the ones that came in. The next time I called they said they have not gotten any in yet and are still waiting on the original shipment that was supposed to come in on 2/14.
Every time I call in I get a different answer. How hard is it to be honest?
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pretty hard..when you are talking to a sales assoc.
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Sweetwater has them in stock as of today 2/27/07.
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Sweetwater has them in stock as of today 2/27/07.
My understanding is that they were _supposed_ to ship Monday and be in stock at some dealers today, but that they didn't actually ship (and shipping confirms go out) until today. If this is correct, I'll have mine Thursday.
Jeff
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It's here! The FEDEX man brought mine this morning. I ended up canceling my order with MF, because now they won't get them in until March 12th. I got mine from Sweetwater. I will take photos shortly.
Hell yeah!
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It's here! The FEDEX man brought mine this morning. I ended up canceling my order with MF, because now they won't get them in until March 12th. I got mine from Sweetwater. I will take photos shortly.
Hell yeah!
Congratulations Colin! I have been following this thread with a lot of anticipation. I was just giving $600 in gift checks and that just really made one of the MR-1's a very realistic option. Please post photos or pulls when you get he chance. Also, time to alter that sig line!
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I guess Sweetwater's website is correct about their favorable relationship with KORG and they would get these first. I might have to cancel my order with MF and go with SW for the MR-1000. Let us know how it is, Colin.
JC
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First Pic
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Glad there is no naked guy reflection in that pic ;)
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Ooooo, ahhh, an MR-1. Anyone here in line for a MR-1000? Colin, how much was the MR-1 to the door? Your invoice is blurry. :P
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Just a guess but probably $699.97
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MR1/
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Contrary to popular opinion sometimes what you read interweb isn't actually the truth.
I do know that it is brand spanking new and everyone (in particular resellers that have a good standing relationship) will honor a manufacturers request for a price fix. But hey, sometimes people make exceptions for their loyal customers too.
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Ooooo, ahhh, an MR-1. Anyone here in line for a MR-1000? Colin, how much was the MR-1 to the door? Your invoice is blurry. :P
$729.46 That was with overnight shipping.
It is charging right now, but I am not sure if it is charging or not. When the unit is off and plugged in, it does not show anything, so I can't tell if it is actually charging.
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Is the CF card in the picture just for size comparison?
Later,
pjdavep
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Ooooo, ahhh, an MR-1. Anyone here in line for a MR-1000? Colin, how much was the MR-1 to the door? Your invoice is blurry. :P
One here. Just switched my preorder for the MR-1000 from Musicians Friend to Sweetwater today. I also got the priority shipping. Total cost to the door was $1237.89 (doesn't charge untill it's shipped). I talked with the guy that helped Colin with his MR-1. He said that they are looking at the beginning of April for the MR-1000. This jives with the info that Jerry K., the product manager for KORG USA, posted here.
JC
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Is the CF card in the picture just for size comparison?
Later,
pjdavep
Yes just for size comparison. It was the only thing I had around. It's 4.5" long x 2.5" wide x 1" thick.
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Interesting note: The software disc is on a CD-R ::). Nice job Korg.....
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Ooooo, ahhh, an MR-1. Anyone here in line for a MR-1000? Colin, how much was the MR-1 to the door? Your invoice is blurry. :P
It is charging right now, but I am not sure if it is charging or not. When the unit is off and plugged in, it does not show anything, so I can't tell if it is actually charging.
Hey that is what I told you a few weeks ago when I was charging mine! You have to guess when the charge is complete. I'm actually using a stealthable battery and made some stealthable cables for my MR-1. Might post some pictures if people are interested.
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One more shot of the contents of the box.
The plug ::), why so big? Pleather Case, MR-1, and the "Mic"
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Ooooo, ahhh, an MR-1. Anyone here in line for a MR-1000? Colin, how much was the MR-1 to the door? Your invoice is blurry. :P
I'm going mr-1000 on preorder with Sweetwater. I was also told first week of April.
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my MR1 is coming today or monday.
probably mon due to the blizzard we are in the middle of.
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no.
:)
I might have several of them though...so if they are of stock in two weeks, I might be able to loose one.
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Well I've got mine (from SP). Any one tried using an external DC battery with this yet? I'll try giving it a run Sunday.
Jeff
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Can someone be kind enough to post a real-life battery length metric?
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huh?
I thought the factory said only a couple hours on the internal.
figure on the a good 5v 5amp pack to run it a long time, id' guess.
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With the units finally coming in, maybe it's time to start a new "hands on experience" thread? This one is getting big with 23 pages..
Roel
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indeed.
Mine arrives tomorrow, and I'm taking it out in the field on Wed.
I will definetely post the recording, my thoughts, pictures, what not..etc,
and if someone will walk me through the resistor test, i'll gladly do that too.
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OK, now I'm curious and seriously looking for MR-1 deck loan to do an MR-1 technical review.
We need to know what is going on with the analog inputs if going to use this deck in most effective manner.
One of you guys may have a spare from double ordering, and everyone seems to agree somebody needs to do at least the gain, noise and frequency graphs. Also nice to get a handle on the power consumption issues for getting long running times.
I'll pay FedEx shipping both ways.
Expect to do similar like reviewed MT2496, R-09, partial on Zoom H4 at:
www.sonicstudios.com/mt2496rv.htm (http://www.sonicstudios.com/mt2496rv.htm)
www.sonicstudios.com/r-09revw.htm (http://www.sonicstudios.com/r-09revw.htm)
www.sonicstudios.com/zoomh4rv.htm (http://www.sonicstudios.com/zoomh4rv.htm)
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FYI, Sam Ash was also inaccurate on their website after I called to follow up on my order, so I too switched to Sweetwater. They called me to apologize that there would be a delay, gave me the exact day it would ship, and actually shipped it that day! Kudos to Sweetwater. So I have the unit, but am still waiting on the in-line phantom power units for my AKG mics (2x B-15s) so have only been able to test using the included mics.
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I've been monitoring this tread from it's beggining, wondering how 'good' these recorders really are...after I buyed mr-1000 (couple days ago), I joined the discution just to share my houmble opinion, and maybe help some of you to choice your new recording companion ;)
I've done some 'documentary picture' recordings with it, and most important thing I have to say is that this baby is beautiful sounding! Internal preamp section is avarage good, pritty decent (better then R4's!!)
but maybe still little 'muffy' for the hi-hi-end production. I buyed a RME QUADMIC to companion MR-1000 in a field, and i'm very very very (!) happy with the combination of the two! The sound is so focused, with extended depth and open clarity character, sounding very 'pleasent' and 'warm', very much like 'analogue feel'...
Everything else on this recorder doesn't give confidance that it's really 'profesional' recording device... leak of many various system & setup options you would hope to see on such a device, and for that we'll have to blame KORG engenners, for not having in mind all that things that every sound recordist wish to have in a field with it's recorder. (Recording can't be set to mono (one) channel only!, monitoring can't be selectable (left or right, or both! - it's left headphone L channel, right headphone R channel!) and the monitor (headphone) output is leaking power, and can't provide that much monitoring gain you may required...
I hope that KORG can fix that problems in a future, releasing some firmware updates and organizing 'software' circuit inside that would provide us with more flexibility...(if it can be done?) ...'couse this baby's really SCREAMING QUALITY!
I can compare it directly to edirol R4, and Fostex PD4 (since I used R4 & PD4 in some film productions in a past year), and I have to say that i'm very pleased with the sound i got with MR1000 (with the QUADMIC in front of it), it just blows away the mentioned two, in a terms of depth, clarity, warm, and overall sound 'sweetness' !
hope this helps someone...
cheers!
::)
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This is from the Sweetwater website regarding the MR-1000...
We've confirmed this item will ship soon from Korg and should arrive in our warehouse the week of 4/08. Go ahead, place your order now. We will ship it immediately, the very same day we receive it from Korg.
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This is from the Sweetwater website regarding the MR-1000...
We've confirmed this item will ship soon from Korg and should arrive in our warehouse the week of 4/08. Go ahead, place your order now. We will ship it immediately, the very same day we receive it from Korg.
Got a call from my Sweetwater sales engineer. Looks like the MR-1000 shipments are getting
pushed out to an unknown date.
Oh well, gives us a bit more time to soak in the MR-1 reviews. Anyone here that planned
to get an MR-1000 daunted by the MR-1 reviews (noisey dsd->24bit, long dsd>pcm conversion
times, etc)??? I've been considering an oade modded R4 instead, but I want to hear more
MR-1 reviews first.
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@#*$&*%! >:( No DSD for Panic Spring Tour.
Jerry, you care to comment on this one?
Aside from my displeasure with the news regarding delayed shipment for the 1000s, I'm not too concerned with the 'noise' that has been mentioned in the MR-1 reviews. It's a noise shaping issue and if you look at the graphs (db v freq) for the PCM1804, they show why and where the problem is coming from. They will build some more agressive filters and it will all look fine.
I just hope this delay isn't due to the retooling of AudioGate. Just ship the darn things and put the software up for download from the website.
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I don't think there is anything wrong with the units. They are selling them over in Japan and elsewhere. I agree with you that the bugs should be taken care of before a product hits the market, but I don't think that there is an issue with the hardware. I may be wrong, but I had a gut feeling this would happen anyway, and my guess is retooling AudioGate.
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Is there a hold switch on the MR1000? Couldn't find it in the docs.
Unfortunelly, NO.
but it's not a mayor disaster, things don't get easely 'pushed' in work.
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It probably dosen't make a very good white russian either.
I just checked with Sweetwater and they are still slated to receive a very limited number of 1000s on 4/9. Whether or not this will actually happen remains to be seen. I'm not holding my breath.
Freelunch, a hold button would have been nice, but I'll settle for no gremlins.
Probably time to start a new MR-1000 thread.
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it'll have a hold button. ever see a recorder (digi) that didn't?
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it'll have a hold button. ever see a recorder (digi) that didn't?
Well with this discussion getting to them, if it didn't have a hold button before, I sure they'll put one in with firmware; think press some button for 5 seconds to HOLD button lockout mode
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@#*$&*%! >:( No DSD for Panic Spring Tour.
Jerry, you care to comment on this one?
Aside from my displeasure with the news regarding delayed shipment for the 1000s, I'm not too concerned with the 'noise' that has been mentioned in the MR-1 reviews. It's a noise shaping issue and if you look at the graphs (db v freq) for the PCM1804, they show why and where the problem is coming from. They will build some more agressive filters and it will all look fine.
I just hope this delay isn't due to the retooling of AudioGate. Just ship the darn things and put the software up for download from the website.
We're getting our first shipment in early next week, so all is good!!
Regards,
Jerry
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Forget all those bad things I said about you :P
dood, you just made my day. ;D
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Guess that means I'm SOL on getting one of the first shipments. My sweetwater sales
guy said I was at the top of a very long list. He really made it sound like
Korg was delaying shipment, guess he's just trying to keep me on the hook
there instead of looking elsewhere for one.
Glad 'the dude' is getting one!
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+T mandoman
I hope I'm on the short list. I guess it all depends on how many units SW gets. [fingers crossed/]
"The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' 'er easy for all us sinners. Shoosh. I sure hope he makes the finals."